Asian Americans

Applying to College
81

<p>i don't know where some of you are pulling all these ideas from (how about some citing?) but the main fact is that 80% of people who apply to "highly desirable" schools have what it takes to make it there, and yet, only 10% of them actually get admitted. again, a lot of this process is a crapshoot--maybe if you had turned in your application a day after you did and got a different admiss person you would have gotten accepted, who knows? </p>

<p>i am an executive board member of the overnight hosting for prospective students, and thus, i work very closely with MY undergraduate admissions office, and I have seen firsthand account of this. SEA at MY school DOO get special consideration--me and a lot of my asian SEA friends as an example. Many of us have been refugees and/or have parents as refugees and many of us are so poor, our school gives us 100% of our financial need, so before you go and say SEA that are poor are given the butt while blacks that are rich are given extra points, why don't you go personally to the school's admissions office and ask rather than make conjectures to suit your argument?</p>

82

<p>sakky, i understand what you're saying. there is only one bin for asians and whites. however, for minorities such as african americans, hispanics, and native americans there are 3.</p>

83

<p>Patientlywaiting said,</p>

<br>


<br>

<p>There should be only one bin for everyone, not separate bins for minorities. In fact, there is also a SEPARATE BIN for Asian Ams, as evidenced by the fact that they are required to have a hiigher standard of achievement in order to be admitted. A study by the Consortium on Financing Higher Eduction in 1992 found that Asian Ams admitted to the Ivies had as much as 100 points higher on average on the SAT I than the mean SAT I scores for admitted whites in the Ivies and many of the elite colleges.</p>

<p>It is troubling because Asian Americans as a group usually have higher academic ratings (i.e. test scores and grades) and non-academic ratings (i.e. motivation, perservance, special talents, leadership, and overcoming obstacles such as poverty, language and culture differences) than all other groups on average. They have never been given preference as a targeted minority group. Asian Americans were paying a penalty by having to have higher grades (the best indicator for future academic success) and higher SAT scores [at Harvard it was 65 (100 points higher in the late 1980s)points higher than the white mean in 1992; at Rice it was 70 points higher; at Stanford, 58 points higher; Columbia, 42 points; Williams, 36 points; Brown 36 points ; Dartmouth 49 points; Princeton 40 points; and Duke 38 points higher;] </p>

<p>Source: Consortium on Financing Higher Education, 1992. </p>

<p>Also, if race-blind college admissions were implemented and AA abolished, it is
a near certainty that the percentage of black students at the nation's highest-ranked colleges and universities will drop from the present average of about 6% to 2% or less, simply because they can't meet the standards the rest of the class was admitted with.</p>

84

<p>In the book, "Getting In: Inside the College Admissions Process" by Bill Paul, Addison- Wesley Publishing Co., Inc., 1995, the author writes in his discussion on affirmative action and reverse discrimination against Asian Americans on pp. 200-202: </p>

<p>Thomas Kean, the head of Drew University and former Governor of New
Jersey, said, [some colleges have "invisible quotas" for Asian- Americans done in the name of "diversity."] </p>

<p>Mr. Kean, also the Head of the Commission on 9/11, said, "Nobody wants to talk about this," he told me (Mr. Bill Paul, the author) in an interview, "but the word is very much around at the most highly-selective colleges. People are practicing that discrimination."</p>

85

<p>I don't think you understood what he said....</p>

86

<p>quynh said, </p>

<br>


<br>

<p>Here are sources or references for "these ideas":</p>

<p>From the book, "Illiberal Education: The Politics of Race and Sex on Campus", by Dinesh D'souza, 1990, </p>

<p>In Chapter 2, "(Asians are) More Equal Than Others", p. 263 (Chap. 2 footnotes):</p>

<p>[At Harvard in 1982 Asian Americans who were offered admission had a combined SAT average of 1467; for whites, the average was only 1355. Thus Asians typically had to score more than 100 points higher (112 points in 1982) than whites to be admitted to Harvard. Further, although Asian American application rates climbed rapidly between 1982 and 1987, Harvard continued to accept between 11 - 15% of Asians (Americans) in each freshman class, an "upper limit quota" in the minds of Asian activists. Robert
Klitgaard, "Choosing Elites", Basic Books, N.Y., 1985, pp. 134-41. See also Jon Bunzel and Jeffrey Au, "Diversity or Discrimination: Asian-Americans in College," in "The Public Interest", Spring 1987, p. 55.]</p>

<p>Even today, the Asian Americans are only 17% of Harvard, where as Stanford is 25% and UC Berkeley and UCLA are over 40% Asian Ams, with the increasing number of applications from academically stelar Asian Ams who are growing as a group at the FASTEST rate of any other group in the American population.</p>

<p>As I had said before, Asian Ams are 4% of the total population.</p>

<p>Jews are over 30% of Harvard, yet they are only 2.5% of the total population because the Jewish quota has been abolished, where as the Asian Am quota still exists. This is so because Jews are NOT CLASSIFIED as Jews anymore. The adcom does not want to know if the applicant is Jewish. However, Asian Ams are given a racial classification, and are limited in numbers because of "OVERRREPRESENTATION", and subject to de facto quotas because of dib=versity. Well, Jews are EVEN MORE OVERRPREPRESENTED, but they are not limited by quotas because they are not classified as Jews or as a separate ethnic or religious group on admissions. Jews are subsection of the white applicant group and the adcom does not want to know if the applicant is Jewish. By the same token, the adcom should not have to know if the applicant is Asian Am, white, black, or latino either. Therefore, admissions should be race, ethnic and religious group blind or neutral. If the Asian Am quota (de facto as result of "diversity") were abolished, the Asian Am numbers would definitely go up from the 15% in the Ivies and many of the elite colleges. </p>

<p>Asian American numbers are restricted because they are overrepresented for their 4% of the total population.</p>

<p>I refer you to the book, "Questions and Admissions: Reflections on 100,000 Admissions at Stanford", !995, Stanford U. Press, by Jean H. Fetter, former Director of Admissions at Stanford. On page 97, she states, "The central fact was that while Asian Americans were being admitted to Stanford in numbers proportionally much larger than their representation in California and the U.S. population, the rate at which they had been admitted have been consistently lower than that for white students. Generally similar conditions have prevailed at other universities. Between 1982 and 1985. . . . . Asian Americans applicants to Stanford had admission rates ranging between 66 - 70% of the admission rates for whites ." </p>

<p>Nothing really has changed at some of the other elite universities, Ms. Fetter, had referred to, such as Brown and UPenn.</p>

<p>Here are some stats which will give relative acceptance rates for racial and ethnic each group (% of acceptances divided by the % of applicants) at Brown and Penn from their respective newspapers. The Ivies will never reveal racial stats because they are damning.</p>

<p>From the 2/22/01 and 4/3/01 Brown Daily Herald:</p>

<p>Brown University Class of '05</p>

<p>16,500 applicants</p>

<p>Asian Americans: 20.3% of the applicants, 16% of the acceptances
African Americans: 6% of the applicants, 9% of the acceptances
Latino Americans: 7.1% of the applicants, 9% of the acceptances
Whites and others: 66.6% of the applicants, 66% of the acceptances</p>

<p>Asian Ams have the lowest acceptance rate of any racial or ethnic group, INCLUDING WHITES at Brown for the Class of 2005. Asian American acceptance rates were as low as 60% to 70% of the white acceptance rates, and less than 50% of the black and latino acceptance rates. Asian Ams paid the HEAVIEST price, whites did not pay a price, because they were 66% of the the applicants and 66% of the acceptances in race based admissions in AA.</p>

<p>From the 2/12/01 The Daily Pennsylvanian (<a href="http://www.dailypennsylvanian.com%5B/url%5D):"&gt;www.dailypennsylvanian.com):&lt;/a> </p>

<p>Asian American applicants represent 31% of the 19,086 applicants for the University of Pennsylvania’s Class of 2005 but only about 23% of the acceptances. UPenn accepts Asian Americans at a lower rate than any other group.</p>

87

<p>I have an interesting prospective on this issue. I am half vietamese, half white. My family is middle class, I go to one of my area's best private schools, and both my parents have college degrees ( my mom a masters my dad a phd). I have competative SAT scores and a competitive GPA. Sometimes on college aps, I can only check one box so which one do I check? </p>

<p>Do I think my being half vietnamese helped me get into my private school? Yes. Do I think I needed it? No. Do I like being singled out as the only asian in my grade and one of less then ten minority students in my class? No. Personaly, I feel that my race has had no factor in in I am qualified to go to a specific school and I hope that my checking a certain box would not determine what schools I will get into. The problem is it very well could. I admit, I feel almost guilty, like I have a genetic unfair advantage over other people. </p>

<p>But when it comes down to it Vietnameses is sometimes considered a different from other Asian groups so I should write that in. I figure, if everyone else will do whatever they can to get into competative schools, why shouldn't I?</p>

88

<p>"All you have done is use ad hominem attacks. Anyone with a brain knows ad hominem attacks don't work."</p>

<p>I wouldn't say that Schopenhauer lacked a brain...
<a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/3251000160/qid=1098599656/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/102-9154451-5418547?v=glance&s=books%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/3251000160/qid=1098599656/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/102-9154451-5418547?v=glance&s=books&lt;/a>
anyone with a brain knows that ad hominem arguments work MUCH MUCH BETTER than ad rem arguments. just follow the presidential campaigns.
on a side note, my SAT score is higher than yours, asian boy (that even was ad personam).</p>

<p>"WOW, You need to learn some facts before you attack people." </p>

<p>fact like "colleges do reject students because they are asian that is the basis of AA"?</p>

<p>"This will be my last post on any topic on AA"</p>

<p>Hooray! Live and let live</p>

89

<p>couldnt have said it better myself, yz16. =)</p>

90

<p>Excerpts from 3/27/03 Detroit News: </p>

<p>Op Ed: “How affirmative action affects minorities:
Experience shows racial preferences take seats from Asian-Americans,
echoing past discrimination against Jewish students"</p>

<p>by George Bornstein / Special to The Detroit News</p>

<p>[As everyone knows, African-Americans and to a lesser extent Latinos
benefit. But as the statistics from California , Texas and other states
that have banned affirmative action in admissions pile up, the answer
to who loses is becoming clear. It is not whites, but Asian-Americans.</p>

<p>A Feb. 2 New York Times article found that in the well-documented cases
of UCLA, University of California Berkeley and the University of Texas at
Austin , abolishing affirmative action caused the number of African-
Americans to decline most and that of Hispanics next-most.</p>

<p>The real surprise is that the percentage of whites hardly budged. At
The University of Texas at Austin , for example, the percentage of white
freshman admitted declined from 67 percent in the class before a
federal court order to 66 percent. Similarly, at Berkeley, whites as a
percentage of the latest freshman class fell a percentage point from the last
year before affirmative action was abolished in California . Indeed, non-
Hispanic whites are actually an "under-represented group" at Berkeley :
They comprise 49 percent of the state's population but only 29 percent of
the freshman class. </p>

<p>The places vacated by African-Americans, Latinos and whites went to
Asian-Americans. At Austin , for example, the percentage of Asians
admitted rose to 71 percent from 68 percent, so they now comprise 18
percent of the first-year students there in a state with an Asian population
of 3 percent.</p>

<p>The Berkeley numbers are more startling. The percentage of Asians-
Americans there jumped six percentage points between the end of
affirmative action and the fall of 2001; Asians now comprise 45 percent
of the freshman class at Berkeley but 12 percent of California 's population. </p>

<p>The lesson is clear. Affirmative action transfers places from Asian-
Americans to African-Americans and Latinos. Yet both supporters and
detractors cast the debate as black vs. white. The true issue is whether
we want or need a policy that systematically restricts the places for
Asian-Americans in our elite universities.]</p>

91

<p>Again, the poorest Asian Americans, from families with incomes of less than $20k/year, who have parents with a high school diploma or less, perform higher on the SAT I, achieve higher GPAs, take more difficult courses, and graduate at higher rates than the richest blacks, from family incomes with $100k/year, who have parents with college and graduate degrees. In fact, the poorest Asian Americans living in the poorest neighborhoods with blacks and latinos, attending the same ghetto k-12 schools, outperform whites in more affluent neighborhoods. That's the dark secret and verifiable FACT that the politically correct refuse to acknlowledge.</p>

<p>Click on:</p>

<p><a href="http://www.lagriffedulion.f2s.com/testing.htm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.lagriffedulion.f2s.com/testing.htm&lt;/a>
STANDARDIZED TESTS: THE INTERPRETATION OF RACIAL AND ETHNIC GAPS </p>

<p>The question is , 'Why is this so ??". </p>

<p>What are the root causes for this OVERALL UNDERPERFORMANCE AND UNDERACHIEVEMENT of all blacks, including the most affluent blacks?? </p>

<p>That's the crux of the problem, and until you find the reasons for this, the racial gaps in academic achievement will never be narrowed or closed.</p>

<p>Please click on:</p>

<p><a href="http://www.nationalreview.com/15sept97/hu091597.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.nationalreview.com/15sept97/hu091597.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>NR Back-to-School Issue September 15, 1997 </p>

<p>AMERICA'S SCHOOLS: EDUCATION AND RACE</p>

<p>The performance of minority students in affluent areas refutes the prevailing educational shibboleths. </p>

<p>by ARTHUR HU </p>

<p>Mr. Hu is a writer living in Kirkland, Washington..</p>

<p>Justifying race based AA on "diversity" is nothing but a cope-out excuse for not solving the problem of overall black academic underachievement and underperformance and not looking for solutions.</p>

92

<p>In answer to patientlywaiting, there are seperate bins - but the question is, why? Why should there by separate bins for different races? To repeat my example again, if there are 1000 available spots, and 1000 African-Americans apply who all happen to be clearly more qualified than all the other candidates, then why shouldn't they get all the spots? Or look at the sports analogy again - an NFL team doesn't have a bin just for Asian players. If an Asian guy wants to get a roster spot on an NFL team, he can't just be better than any other Asian who is trying to get on the team, he has to be better than every other person, regardless of race, who wants to be on the team (but was rejected).</p>

93

<p>I would bet anything that if by some crazy magic the Asians suddenly became a URM race, then the same people who are arguing against AA on such lofty moral/ethical grounds now would become the most fervent supporters.</p>

94

<p>Just because you're asian and you did better in high school and on standardized tests than the black student who made it into Harvard doesn't mean you're more qualified than he is.</p>

<p>Yes, admitting solely based on the color of one's skin is wrong, but colleges look at the whole picture - not just grades and scores. </p>

<p>Get that through your head before you start judging people as "overqualified" and "underqualified." </p>

<p>I'm at Princeton, where I'm sure there are plenty of URMs who scored lower than I did on standardized tests. Because test scores aren't mentioned in college, you judge people by their character, not by their base test scores. And let me tell you, I have met very few "underqualified" people on campus.</p>

<p>Judging URMs admitted to elite colleges to be "underqualified" is a condescending statement that shows off the Asian-parent mentality of measuring others solely based on their test scores. Get a grip with life: testing well is just one of the many talents a person can have. Some people don't have that ability, but they make up for it in many other ways.</p>

<p>AA is up for discussion, but calling admitted URMs "underqualified" is a gross mistatement of your understanding of the principles of AA.</p>

95

<p>I think we can all agree that it is not correct to judge somebody's capabilities solely on a test score or on high school grades. It is of course true that one should take a look at the whole person.</p>

<p>The problem comes when you do take a bonafide look at the whole person, and still admit somebody based solely on race. You say that some people don't score well on tests, but can make up for it on other ways. That is of course true. But what happens if they don't make up for it in other ways, but get admitted anyway?</p>

96

<p>why not look at the family income and a student's personal life? I would think they would be better determinants than skin color or race.</p>

<p>I'm Asian and my parents personally helped me develop academically. they didn't really push me. they instead removed social barriers to hinder education. I pushed myself cuz there was nothing else to do. </p>

<p>Still, I don't see how anyone could make the broad generalization that Asian parents push their children academically while Black or Hispanic parents don't. How can you define someone by their race?</p>

97

<p>The better student can sometimes not be the one that gets admission because colleges aren't looking to admit a class of geniuses. Here at Princeton, academics are assigned a number on a scale of 1-5 or 1-3. The school tries to admit a mix of these numbers every year.</p>

98

<p>what else is looked at?</p>

99

<p>Just because there are exceptions to the rule doesnt mean you can't make an accurate observation. If you are thorough and impartial, you CAN generalize about a group's behaviour, even by race, individual exceptions notes. And it is helpful to do so sometimes, to evaluate where strengths and weaknesses lie. On the contrary, by VTran31's argument, no one is ever able to cast any kind of statement about anything, any group.</p>

100

<p>I've read every single one of these posts, and I most say I'm very impressed with the points that many of you have made. I'm not sure I can contribute any more in the way of facts and figures, but I'd like to try. </p>

<p>I am, in fact, a Chinese girl applying to two Ivies--Princeton and Cornell. (My stats are on various threads, so anyone who wants to see whether or not I am a grade-grubbing, test-centered, no-life Asian marionette can indulge themselves. Enjoy.) I do not support AA although I can see how it helps URM. My arguments are going to be mainly centered on the Chinese, since it's the largest denomination and my ethnicity as well. </p>

<p>"Affirmative Action levels the playing field so people of color have the chance to compete in education and in business."
I was a bit offended--are Asians not people of color? For over a century, Asians in the United States have been perceived as a "yellow peril" with just as much violence and prejudice directed towards them as Black/African Americans. At the risk of being didactic, I'll just give a few excerpts from various sources: </p>

<ul>
<li>"Before [California] and the world we declare that the Chinaman must leave our shores. We declare that white men, and women, and boys, and girls, cannot live as the people of this great republic should and compete with the single Chinese coolie on the labor market... To an American, death is preferable to life on a par with the Chinaman." </li>
<li>By 1882, Congress passed the Chinese Exclusion Act of 1882, prohibiting all Chinese persons, along with "lunatics" and "idiots" from entering the United States for ten years. The ban on Chinese immigration was extended in 1888, 1892, and 1902.
-during another outbreak against the Chinese in Chico, a small city in Sacramento Valley,4 Chinese were tied up, set on fire, and burned to death </li>
</ul>

<p>The last sounds suspiciously akin to a lynching to me. Historically, although the slavery of Black Americans is a shameful epoch that should not be forgotten or excused, they are not the only martyrs. It is impossible to compare the mass prostitution of young Asian girls in California at the turn of the century and the victimization of slave women. </p>

<p>Asian Americans have endured just as much pain and humiliation for the yellow of their skin as Black Americans have for theirs. Yet AA does not recognize this! One might argue that the recent influx of educated immigrants makes this a nil point--but I'd like to see an example of race riots in recent times as well. You give me the Civil Rights Movement, I give you the WWII Japanese camps. The fact is, even though people of color have endured similiar pain, with prejudices relaxing equally at about the same time, only one group is acknowledged in AA. </p>

<p>Fine. So what? What's important now is how Asians are going to universities and having a grand old time. Now answer me, why is this? China has suffered, in the last century, utter subjugation underneath Western powers, devastation by the Japanese in WWII and a revolution in the past ten years O_o. My grandparents saw their friends being mutilated and raped in the attack on Nanking. My dad was part of the Cleansing in Mao's Revolution (his father was a landowner). And yet he came to the US with a scholarship from a US university. </p>

<p>The Civil Rights Movement ended in the 60's. With equality achieved, why haven't Black Americans, in the two generations past, been able to achieve what Asians have in the past ten years? It has nothing to do with color, but with the projected goals of each group. Asian Americans focus on education being the key. Black Americans, like most Americans in earlier times, were more focused on getting a good job. </p>

<p>It's just chance that education has suddenly become more important. That being said, perhaps college-level "equality" is not the best way to help URM--familial emphasis on education is more important. I was brought up to think of school as a magic institution, the key in a world where I WOULD be discriminated against. One can sneer all they want at the grade-grubbing Asians, but Asians need the good grades to get that edge that will only make them EQUAL to Caucasians on the opportunity market.</p>

<p>I can't say much about economic equality for Asians and Black Americans, but I'm still a staunch supporter of the whole "do it yourself" mentality. I grew up POOR. As in eating fish every day because what you caught fishing was free. As in wearing the same clothes for eight years because new clothes were frivolous. My dad worked himself into a heart attack at age 35. He and my mother have not taken a vacation for eighteen years. </p>

<p>I know I will be lambasted for being racist, but I can't help but come to an unflattering conclusion when I see the statistics below.</p>

<p>-In 2002, blacks, Hispanics and Asians wielded significant discretionary income: $646 billion, $581 billion and $296 billion, respectively, according to the Selig Center for Economic Growth at the University of Georgia.
-Black consumers will spend an average of $1,427 on clothing ($458 more than the average consumer), followed by Hispanic consumers at $1,282, and Asian Americans at $1,044.
-Asian $44,456
-White 39,300
-Hispanic 23,654
-Black 21,542</p>

<p>-only 25 percent of black Americans have a planning horizon of at least five years (compared to 38 percent of all Americans).In relation to spending and income, 24 percent of black Americans report that they spend more than their income (compared to 14 percent of all Americans). Moreover, 37 percent of black Americans spend less than their income (compared to 56 percent of all Americans).</p>

<p>Calculating the percentage (12%) of Black Americans, multiplied by population of the US (295 million), multiplied by the average income, one comes up with the amount of money the Black American population has. The consumer spending divided by that number is 0.847 or that spending makes up 85% of spending. </p>

<p>Doing the same to Asians: 0.451 or 45%. </p>

<p>Is poverty the result of prejudice and being trodden down, or the result of bad money managing? </p>

<hr>

<p>I am an utter advocate of the "suck it up, keep your head down, work, work, work" philosophy. Being able to look twenty years in the future and delaying instant gratification has pushed my parents to where they are now. Our family got nothing from the government and expects nothing more than what we can get with our hands and heads. </p>

<p>My parents always feared being complacent and relying on hand-outs. We were eligable for welfare, but their pride utterly demolished that idea. Shoot me down for my "holier than thou" attitude" but even if AA were to help me, I would not take it. It's basically charity for higher education. </p>

<p>Asians are people of color. They have suffered as much as Black Americans, whether in their own country or in the US. Yet their focus on education and thrift (oi...can't eat fish ever again) has given them a higher socioeconomic level than other minorities. AA punishes these qualities by declaring Asians exempt from their leveling of the playing field for so-proclaimed "people of color." </p>

<p>Hm. Asian children: have less of a life, study even more, grade-grub even more, because that is the only way you'll be equal on the college admissions level as other minorities, and less-than-equal to whites in the opportunity sector. </p>

<p>Why does the Chinese Exclusion Act of 1882 and "No Yellows Need Apply" seem hauntingly familiar? </p>

<p>-L.</p>