I don’t understand what you are trying to say here.
It’s pretty clear that race/ethnicity has some kind of impact on admissions, unless the school works hard to eliminate that impact (like the UCs). We don’t have perfect information about how this impacts admissions, and it will also differ from school to school, but there is no doubt there’s an impact.
I just don’t understand how this would change the advice given for a Chance Me post. We’re mostly talking about schools that are already reaches for anyone.
It is often not a ivy, t10 or bust mindset. It is often a ivy, t10 or it is not worth paying 75k — so may as well go to the instate public mindset. Since they won’t ask you (the high stat kids) to chance them for the instate public, it may come across to you as a list that is short on targets and long on reaches.
Im saying there are certain posters here who are gaslighting Asian Americans’ personal experiences in the college admissions process.
I have literally said that you can just tell these applicants that they are unhooked and their chances are low. It’s right there above you. Look at the last 15 posts.
However, these responses are insufficient. Instead, the goal is not to help Asian American kids and their families but to persuade them that their thought process is incorrect.
The fact pattern is Asian American posters telling them how they feel, what they have experienced and the non Asian posters telling them why they are either wrong or to provide some Perry Mason/Columbo smoking gun evidence to support their views. It’s highly predictable - and the responses are too. Even if you cite a former Associate Dean of Admissions at Upenn telling everyone that there was blatant racism and stereotyping, people still refuse to believe it.
There are certain posters who have literally argued with every self identified Asian American poster in this thread and then deny they are doing this.
I see where you wrote this, but then a few posts later you made it abundantly clear that you don’t believe it, and in your opinion Asian parents and families don’t believe it, and that you and they very much resent the suggestion that they are not being discriminated against in college admission.
I appreciate your honesty, and while I don’t completely agree I can see why you felt like you were being gaslighted, and I apologize for my role in making you feel that way. To be honest I too feel uncomfortable with any sort of directive that would tell Asian families or anyone what should be off limits in “chance me” threads, but I am not sure the best course of action.
What do you suggest we advise Asian students who are seeking admission at highly rejective schools?
What is the “correct” thought process for advising these students?
How would your advice to an Asian student differ for a school like UCLA from a comparably rejective school outside California?
I have seen expensive paid consultants advice Asian kids to apply as public policy, political science or another humanities major instead of CS at highly rejective privates, where the kid can authentically pass himself as such this upcoming season . I disagreed with this advice for a friends’ kid. My advice to this kid and even in the past was to Indicate multiple interests (at least one of them being a humanities major) with CS being one of them. This much of jumping through the hoops should not be necessary
You need to be pointy in several areas, preferably one of them in non stem, and have people write about you to that effect. Or you can be an imo gold (as an example — I mean something of that magnitude) — then you don’t need a humanities footprint. Or you can be hooked — that also works
Two years ago our valedictorian was Asian, walked on water (apart from being the val) and was deferred EA at a hypsm. After additional recs were submitted he got into his ea school in rd. Truly unconscionable.
My D’s val with perfect stats, including a 36 ACT, paid and published research, Eagle Scout, varsity athlete, etc… also was shut out, including a WL at Michigan. He was caucasian.
IMO, there is nothing “unconscionable” about it. All the top kids are applying to the same schools, in many cases with the same majors, and there just are simply not enough slots.
I have to admit that it took me a long time to realize what problem this thread was trying to address. Mostly it was because I don’t pay attention to Chance Me threads. I didn’t realize there was this pattern of bitterness being served up as great wisdom. If these views are so universally held then why did the message not filter down to these kids’ parents? Don’t get me wrong. I’m not completely naive about these things. This game of trying to groom Asian identified kids so that they fill the perceived niche du jour at a particular set of colleges has been going on for as long as I can remember. It was all relatively innocent, and I’m actually thrilled by all the a capella choral members, soccer players, football players, track and field stars and bass players I’ve come across in my time who happen to be Asian. But this idea of deliberately instilling bitterness into the process is completely new to me. I’m sorry that things have reached this level of desperation.
Perhaps you are over-generalizing and assuming the comments you read from CC posters reflect the views of most Asian-American parents? I live in an area with a large Asian-American population (high income, highly educated) and yes many of them believe their kids are at a disadvantage at the highly selective schools but I haven’t seen bitterness.
I also know parents of other ethnicities that have been grooming their kid for certain sports via personalized coaching, specialized academies, etc. in the hope they’ll be recruited athletes in the future. Is that a game too?
While each student will be assessed on his/her own merits, there are certain factors including race which will be taken into consideration. There is a case before the Supreme Court that addresses whether colleges will continue to be allowed to take race under consideration. It is currently allowed subject to caveats laid out by prior court decisions. While we may not like it, it is a fact of life.
Race certainly is not a determining factor. However, if a school strives for diversity, it is a factor that cannot be ignored. I like the analogy often used on CC that a schools is trying to fill an orchestra in each class. Similar applicants, whether from the same geography, academic and EC interests, SES status and race will to some extent be compared with each other for limited spots in their part of the “orchestra”. Having worked with the Yale AO across decades as an interviewer, I am certain they do not view “Asians” as a monolith. A Chinese American high performing applicant with one or more parents with advanced degrees in the Bay Area is not in the same comparison group as a Chinese American applicant from Flushing whose parents are laborers.
To give as informed as possible advice to posters with “Chance me” or similar queries, after academic stats, accomplishments (academic and EC), background information on geography, SES status and race are important. This guides us in getting a fix on who the poster is likely to be competing against. In a situation where there are fewer spots than qualified candidates, how strong your competitive group is will have a large bearing on your likelihood of success.
I think it did filter down. So there are a couple of cross currents in the Asian American non-FG community (particularly #1 and #2 source countries). Correct me if I am wrong, @cfp, @hebegebe, @neela1.
There is a veneration of STEM disciplines. One feels that one cannot be judged on skin color or accent so much if one performs well on “objective tests” or one has a skill that can be verified or licensed. A perception that STEM degrees lead more easily to jobs. Many of the parents came to the US for graduate STEM studies, STEM jobs so there is maybe a familial tie too.
The other cross current in these communities is the knowledge that encouraging “lookalike” STEM kids probably not great for highly rejective colleges because too same-ish. So families research and try to find ECs that leaven overly STEM CVs. Cue music. But that’s overdone now. Fencing. Overdone now + the Harvard Asian fencing scandal not great. Squash is a thing now. The self identified Asian American kids participate in model UN, debating, college quiz bowls, dance, figure skating, FBLA, highly competitive camps and workshops of every kind. In effect, creating yet another type of lookalike Asian student.
I think it’s time to change our chancing template and not prompt posters to mention their race. Instead ask about SES/FG status and if they belong to an underrepresented ethnic group (not race). This should tell us if the applicant has any hooks, and if not treat them simply as an unhooked applicant.
There is a strong Asian presence in high school democrat politics at the state level. And consequently a strong presence in democrat policy making circles (post undergrad) by Asians. That cohort places exceptionally well into colleges
At the risk of incurring the wrath of Ski, Google the Arcidiacono ALDC study which provides hooked/unhooked data by the 4 race groups (W,B,H, AA) for the breakdown at Harvard. While the data is getting dated and is limited to 1 school, it should give a sense of general direction. In terms of getting a handle on Asian legacies, we can look back at the racial makeup of classes that graduated say 25 to 40 years ago as a rough proxy. For Yale the range of Asian Americans in Yale College from 1984 to 2000 ranged from 7% to 17.9% (outlier year) using a published report by Yale. Eyeballing the years in aggregate, it is between 10-12%.
So they get into (for example) CMU’s Dietrich College of Humanities and Social Sciences, then enroll and find out that it is extremely difficult and competitive to switch into the School of Computer Science?
Note: political science and public policy are usually considered social sciences, not humanities.
I know that they are social sciences. I am just mentioning some general non stem areas. We also obviously know that this strategy doesn’t work for CMU. People are sufficiently savvy.