asian students aiming at top colleges

[ucbalumnus]

<p>

@beyphy

why on earth would i think that Asians are not Asian Americans? If you actually knew my personal beliefs, you’d know that i’m a huge supporter of Ius Soli; Asian-american is just more syllables to say (that i don’t feel like saying) so i use the word ‘asian’ substantively.

</p>

<p>Yet in your previous paragraphs in posts 33, 52, and 59, you write as if you advocate treating Asian Americans like foreign students, apply foreign stereotypes to them (such as the one that they are only good at test scores, using an example from China, not the US), or advocate discriminating against them “to prevent them from overpopulating a university”. Jus soli confers citizenship, but your writings make it look as if you want Asian Americans’ citizenship to be second class.</p>

[Pizzagirl]

<p>

Those who follow you need to understand stats won’t get them into Ivies and should cast a wide net. 8.5% is the cap at any Ivy for Asian males and that translates to roughly a 110 seats or 140 to 150 admits. So if 30-40 Asian males apply to one Ivy from a single high school in California, they probably all cancel each other out and no one gets in.

</p>

<p>Well, and there’s also the fact that thinking about “the Ivies” as this set of 8 schools that somehow are magically head and shoulders above other similar elite schools is a way of thinking about colleges that simply isn’t true, but a lot of people who don’t know any better cling to it. It makes perfect sense for a smart student to have “get into an elite college” as a goal. It makes ZERO sense for a smart student to have “get into an Ivy League” as a goal, because there simply isn’t much at all that distinguishes Ivies from other elite schools other than they have a historical affiliation and play in the same sports league. It’s about as nonsensical as saying “get into a school with one syllable in the name” and elevate Yale, Duke and Rice above Harvard, Dartmouth and Princeton. It’s a distinction without a meaningful difference.</p>

[annasdad]

<p>

8.5% is the cap at any Ivy for Asian males and that translates to roughly a 110 seats or 140 to 150 admits.

</p>

<p>Source please?</p>

[toughyear]

<p>

texaspg said
“8.5% is the cap at any Ivy for Asian males and that translates to roughly a 110 seats or 140 to 150 admits.”

That 8.5% (Asian Male) looks roughly right …</p>

<p>Asian-american student percentage:
Penn=19%
Cornell=16.5%
Yale=15.5%
Dartmouth=16.1%
Harvard=19.1%
Princeton=17.6%</p>

<p>[MIT=28-26%; Stanford=24%; Caltech=37%]
[Colleges</a> with the Highest Percentage of Asian or Pacific Islander Students | InsideCollege.com](<a href=“The Best College Rankings and Lists | Inside College | CollegeXpress”>The Best College Rankings and Lists | Inside College | CollegeXpress)
<a href=“http://www.asian-nation.org/best-colleges.shtml[/url]”>http://www.asian-nation.org/best-colleges.shtml&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>In this article (<a href=“http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/43824/20100817/asian-american-college-ivy-league.htm[/url]”>http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/43824/20100817/asian-american-college-ivy-league.htm&lt;/a&gt;), there is this

Moreover, if all elite private universities enacted race-blind admissions, the percentage of Asian students would jump from 24 percent to 39 percent (similar to what they already are now at Caltech and Berkeley, two elite institutions with race-blind admissions; the former due to a belief in meritocracy, the latter due to Proposition 209).</p>

<p>What Asian-Americans are enduring now is reminiscent of the travails of American Jews in the 1930s and 1940s, when colleges like Harvard and Yale imposed quotas to limit their numbers at these elite institutions. And like many of those Jews from seven or eight decades ago, numerous Asian-American students today come from poor, humble immigrant households.

</p>

<p>Also this

Espenshade discovered that when comparing applicants with similar grades, scores, athletic qualifications, and family history for seven elite private colleges and universities: whites were three times as likely to get accepted as Asians; Hispanics were twice as likely to win admission as whites and African-Americans were at least five times as likely to be accepted as whites.

</p>

<p>So, if you normalize the likelihood of acceptance to Asian-americans</p>

<p>The likelihood of college acceptance:
Asian-american = 1x
Whites = 3x
Hispanics = 6x
African-americans = 15x or more.</p>

<p>These figures answer Shrinkrap well.</p>

[beyphy]

<p>

Yet in your previous paragraphs in posts 33, 52, and 59, you write as if you advocate treating Asian Americans like foreign students, apply foreign stereotypes to them (such as the one that they are only good at test scores, using an example from China, not the US), or advocate discriminating against them “to prevent them from overpopulating a university”.

</p>

<p>believe whatever you’d like. I have plenty of Asian friend (american citizens and non) and hold no hate for them in my heart. However, everyone has certain interests, be they religion, race, or sex, and we’re all in competition with one another. </p>

<p>i’m more than willing to retract my ‘foreign stereotypes’ if i’m provided with evidence to the contrary. You acknowledge my ‘stereotypes’, but you don’t refute them. We can both sit here and bring up anecdotes like Amy Chua, but i don’t think that will accomplish much for either of us. I am unaware of any large scale study that examines how asian americans differ from non-asian americans in scholastic matters (and frankly don’t feel like looking for one; but if you’d like to do so in an attempt to support your argument i’d be more than willing to read it.)</p>

<p>

Jus soli confers citizenship, but your writings make it look as if you want Asian Americans’ citizenship to be second class.

</p>

<p>How are asian american citizens second class if collectively they’re probably the most educated ethnicity in the world (or at least the US)? This doesn’t even make sense. There are many groups who we might consider to be second-class citizens, but i’ve never considered asians to be among them.</p>

<p>as i said earlier, the overall question is: should asians be compared to the group as a whole, or should they be compared amongst themselves in college admissions? if we, as a country, choose the former, asians will probably have a large representation in a majority of universities; if we choose the latter, they probably won’t.</p>

<p>Perhaps i am stereotyping though; it is certainly true that not all asians are highly educated or come from highly-educated/affluent families. I do apologize if i’ve offended anyone by making seemingly anti-asian comments. Perhaps i’ve misrepresented my overall point: i just remain highly skeptical that asians are discriminated against, when, collectively, they occupy the most space in college admissions. And i will probably continue to believe this claim, unless anyone can give me a good reason for believing the contrary.</p>

[Pizzagirl]

<p>So, if you normalize the likelihood of acceptance to Asian-americans</p>

<p>

The likelihood of college acceptance:
Asian-american = 1x
Whites = 3x
Hispanics = 6x
African-americans = 15x or more.

</p>

<p>You can’t do that without knowing the % of the applicant pool that is made up of each ethnic group. </p>

<p>But that raises an interesting Q. Suppose (for the sake of argument) that every single Asian-American student in the country applies to Harvard. So the applicant pool to Harvard is (I’m making this up for illustrative purposes) 80% Asian, 15% white, 5% black. Does it follow that Harvard has practiced discrimination if we find that the admitted pool is (let’s say) only 60% Asian? In other words, does the “crush” of certain groups applying at certain schools mean that the schools are mandated to made their admitted pool resemble the applicant pool?</p>

[toughyear]

<p>

beyphy said
Lets get real. Asians aren’t discriminated against in the slightest. The test-taking culture is a Sword of Damocles: in one sense, you get a culture that works really hard to get the highest on test scores; the downside is that it increases competition amongst each other to crazy levels, and even if your child is competitive in general, s/he probably isn’t in comparison to some others who are insanely smart naturally, that your child just can’t compete with.

</p>

<p>If you have a better way to measure student’s academic potential, let me know.</p>

<p>Good test taking skill relates to good problem solving skill and ability to focus on the problem at hand.</p>

<p>Good grades relates, in addition, to a superb work ethic.</p>

<p>From my experience, those who are good academically also do solve (technical) problems well in the lab or at the work place. Those who have poor grades have lousy work ethic, coming to work late, not knowing/doing what’s assigned, etc. </p>

<p>When the standardized test results are combined with grade point average or rank from the four years of effot, it is the best known metric for the student’s academic potential. Those who denigrate the test-taking abilities are because they are not good at it. The african-americans, whites and hispanics are good professional athletes, but asian americans are very few in the professional sports. Asian americans have great work ethic, strong at technical field, etc. I just do not understand the logic behind capping asian-american student population — in order to recruit athletes? Do the professional athletes, making multimillions a year doing what they are good at, even need the higher education? Why? to solve an intricate complex problem on the football field? No asian-americans complain about the underrepresentation of its race in the professional sports – so stop complaining about the many asian-americans becoming medical doctors. You rather have a competent and knowledgeable doctor taking care of your family member’s illness rather than someone just because s/he is from your own race. I like to watch an exciting game in football or hocky or baskeball, but don’t care whether there is an asian guy in the team or not. So stop this, to a large part, a nonsense. Well, i rambled long enough…</p>

[texaspg]

<p>annasdad - I have been tracking data over two or three years and Asians seem to average about 17% at the Ivies. I just split the number evenly between male and female.</p>

<p>Toughyear lists 19% for Harvard but their original admit rate was between 17 and 18%. The yield rate for Asians seems much closer to 93+ and hence the increase to 19% in the final number. </p>

<p>I don’t personally agree with the premise that someone else is taking Asians’ slots, in any college. The kids should pay closer attention to their own odds of getting into these tippytop schools and what are some of the other schools that are bending over backwards to serve them. There are lots of great schools out there. There are lots of Asians attending them and coming out fine.</p>

<p>I don’t know how many watch the show Castle but it had an important lesson last night for all kids applying to college. </p>

<p>Rejection is part of life. You need to use it to motivate you.</p>

[ucbalumnus]

<p>

@beyphy

Perhaps i’ve misrepresented my overall point: i just remain highly skeptical that asians are discriminated against, when, collectively, they occupy the most space in college admissions. And i will probably continue to believe this claim, unless anyone can give me a good reason for believing the contrary.

</p>

<p>Do you understand that a group can be overrepresented even though its members are discriminated against, as the example of Lowell High School in San Francisco shows?</p>

<p>This does not necessarily mean that the claimed racial/ethnic discrimination exists at the various universities in question, but it means that simple overrepresentation does not prove that the racial/ethnic discrimination against members of the group in question does not exist in the admissions process of the university. (Nor does simple underrepresentation prove that racial/ethnic discrimination against members of the group in question does exist in the admissions process of the university.)</p>

[Shrinkrap]

<p>"These figures answer Shrinkrap well. "</p>

<p>Wait, what was my question?</p>

<p>So far, on this thread, i have only question the idea that nobody cares about this subject, that Asians don’t complain, or that most CC membrs feel a certain way.</p>

<p>With regard to whether the average SAT score of Asian students admitted to very selective schools in 1983, 1984, and 1993 is higher than the average SAT scores of blacks admitted to very selective schools in 1983, 1984, and 1993, I dont disagrees, and that there was then a boost, most noticible for black students scoring between 1200 and 1300 during those years either. ( I might be off about when the data was collected, but I know some of it was at least fifteen years ago).</p>

<p>Why I stalk thses trheads is because </p>

<p>I DON"T agree that black children are raised form birth understanding they don’t need to try hard in things because they are the fortunate ones when it comes to attending and graduating college. </p>

<p>I DONT agree a significant percentage of black students benefit from affirmative action, and </p>

<p>I DON’T agree that among black societies biggest problmes, is the spectre of what others will think because of affirmative action.</p>

<p>"You rather have a competent and knowledgeable doctor taking care of your family member’s illness rather than someone just because s/he is from your own race. "</p>

<p>Fortunatley I am not sick much, but in my experience, feeling comfortable with your doctor is a HUGE part of perceived competance. For you, that might mean the best EC’s, highest grades or test scores. Not true for everyone.</p>

[annasdad]

<p>

@texaspg

I have been tracking data over two or three years and Asians seem to average about 17% at the Ivies. I just split the number evenly between male and female.

</p>

<p>That does not prove there is a “cap.” Unless you have documentary evidence, or testimony from someone in an inside position, talk of a “cap” is pure speculation, with a strong whiff of grapes gone sour.</p>

[texaspg]

<p>Annasdad - </p>

<p>Do you have ANY evidence to prove that Ivies are admitting more than 15-20% Asians? </p>

<p>Who gives a rodent’s behind about sourgrapes when I don’t have a single kid that completed the application process? You can keep your opinion and I have a right to mine.</p>

<p>I am tracking the chances of admission at different schools for my kid and it is irrelevant whether an actual admission happens as long as one can keep perspective based on the odds at each school.</p>

[Bay]

<p>

Do you have ANY evidence to prove that Ivies are admitting more than 15-20% Asians?

</p>

<p>I don’t have evidence, but I do know that for Harvard’s Fall 2010 enrolled class, 12% were non-resident aliens, 10% were race unknown, and 3% were two or more races. That is 25% of the class unaccounted for by race. It is certainly possible and highly likely that at least 5% are Asian.</p>

[texaspg]

<p>Non-resident Aliens imply that they are foreign born admits.</p>

[Bay]

<p>^Yes, that is the new term for internationals. It doesn’t mean they are not Asian kids who have grown up in the US…</p>

[Pizzagirl]

<p>

From my experience, those who are good academically also do solve (technical) problems well in the lab or at the work place. Those who have poor grades have lousy work ethic, coming to work late, not knowing/doing what’s assigned, etc.

</p>

<p>Life is not all about “technical problems.” There are plenty of life competencies that are required for success, not just the fill-in-the-blank plug-and-chug mentality. Ability to get along with others. Ability to motivate others. Ability to see solutions that aren’t the obvious ones. Ability to see relationships that aren’t always intuitive. Not just “getting the right answer.” My current “star” at work went to Marquette. Another “star” of mine went to the U of Wi- Milwaukee. Some of my Harvard and Yale educated clients specifically ask for these stars, because they are that good. Look, I’m a fantastic standardized test taker, so I’d love to believe that because of that I’m brilliant beyond belief, but there is a lot more to brilliance than that. Flashes of insight. Creativity. Empathy. None of which are measurable by boring old test scores. </p>

<p>But whatever - there is always that geeky point of view that SAT trumps all.</p>

[texaspg]

<p>Non-resident implies that they do not hold a greencard. I can believe in toothfairy but I don’t believe in Harvard admitting a bunch of American educated Asian kids without a greencard but rejecting 20more and all his Asian friends who are citizens and also educated in US.</p>

[Bay]

<p>That Harvard admits undocumented students is well known. </p>

<p>texaspg, Do you not count non-citizen Asians as “Asians” for the purpose of your claim of a “cap?” If not, why not?</p>

[Pizzagirl]

<p>Why people can’t distinguish between “we want to make sure everyone is represented” (and when you squeeze in more, you have to exclude someone) and “we dislike members of group X so we deliberately limit them to y% of the student body” (as was the case with Jews 100 years ago) is beyond me.</p>

[leanid]

<p>"Life is not all about “technical problems.” "</p>

<p>Brava!, Pizzagirl.</p>