<p>Tecknosoul02 brings up a good point that Asian people have a weight on their shoulders to "achieve" (ie get into the ivies) because of the apparent success they see around them. I'm Asian and I live in a city where the Asian population is very low. Suprisingly to some, my parents haven't ever put a huge amount of pressure on me to go to an ivy league school. In fact, they would rather have me go to our flagship state university. On the other hand, my cousin living in a metropolitan coastal city with a massive asian population has a ton of pressure on her to go to an ivy league school. Most of this pressure comes from her parents simply because people in their church have sent a some kids to HYP (but not elite LACs or "southern ivies". Naturally, the other parents try to have their kids emulate what these kids did, which usually includes participating in the usual activities: piano/violin, tennis, etc. And bam, we've got a whole lot of very similar applicants.</p>
<p>I don't have any weight on my shoulders to achieve anything...I don't care if my dad's an engineer, my life is independent of my dad's. I don't care what my mom's friends think of Wesleyan University (often confused with Wellesley College)...because I'm going there if I want to. I don't care if my cousin went to Yale, I'M NOT MY COUSIN GOD DAMN IT. I don't care if both my parents, both my grandparents, every one of my aunts and uncles, and 4 out of 5 of my cousins are doctors(hypothetical case, thank god this isn't real...they would give me a lot of **** for science being my worst subject)...I'm not going into medicine because I SIMPLY DON'T WANT TO (and I despise science, but that comes second to the fact that I don't want to).</p>
<p>Now if other asians were on the same train of thought....</p>
<p>IsleBoy, your post #26 is spot-on accurate, and has been echoed recently by people in admissions.</p>
<p>Epiphany:</p>
<p>That's good to know. It's interesting that many like to go back to the idea that it is ONLY about race, and forget the mitigating factors (i.e. income, interests, experiences) and the myriad of other intangibles that make-up each applicant.</p>
<p>And, it is not surprising that AA detractors talk about Asians as a group, and sometimes do not make distinctions between Southeast Asian applicants and Japanese, Chinese, and Korean applicants. Perhaps, it's because the former group has not traditionally enjoyed the benefit of having many opportunities or the means to aqquire them--a stance that would weaken the arguement against AA being unfair to ALL Asians (and non-minorities) based on STATISTICAL performance (i.e. test scores and HS gpa) and without considering non-numbers driven characteristics. Usually, those that argue for the abolition of AA, belong to one of the groups hurt by considering holistic factors, including ethnicity and socioeconomic status, in addition to statistical measures into account during admissions. People forget that "fair" is a definition that has many facets.</p>
<p>I know refining the admissions process at colleges sometimes moves slower than we would like, but the upside is that it does change--and people, to an extent, become more aware by defalt. They might be dragged kicking and screaming, but they too will need to move with evolving, and more holistic nature of admissions, or risk being left behind.</p>
<p>;)</p>
<p>Another eloquent post, IsleBoy. And a very important distinction between Southeast Asians in admissions & the 3 dominant groups you mentioned. A brief journey back through the Early Results (on CC) of the last couple of cycles, will show Southeast Asians as having an advantage at places like Columbia (& I'm sure one or two others, but Columbia comes to mind).</p>
<p>The part that troubles me about this issue - & one I did not bring up on a similar thread on Parents' Forum recently -- is that I wonder how much support immigrants get from some Asian countries, to make the transition that I discussed there on that thread. Is there not an already assimilated (& bilingual) Asian immigrant who can buddy-up with newcomers to help them understand the different cultural expectations & behaviors.? The U.S. gov't should be providing that to any immigrant. The educational system, the political system, our social services -- are 3 needs & 3 very different aspects of life here than in Asia. It is very difficult for the young Chinese or Korean student to be the one to try to "translate" a very different set of expectations to his or her own parents. And it is not always effective. Better to have an authority figure to help explain how entrance into a prestigious University is not completely within the control of the applicant; and secondly, as some of you have said, to explain also how many equally fine educational opportunities are available, beyond the "name" schools.</p>
<p>I haven't investigated the immigration process recently, but if this is not something offered, it is really wrong.</p>
<p>Here is a twist on this topic: my younger D is adopted from China. We aren't wealthy--I adopted following my divorce so there is no dad or child support like my bio D has. She is Han Chinese but a more all-American kid could not be found (She looks more Hispanic than Asian to me!). She has an American sounding name, is not into ethnic activities. She is bright, wants to become a pharmacist or engineer, has high math/science scores but does less well in English/social studies (but breezes through Latin). When she applies in a couple of years, should she leave the optional race section blanck or check her Asian heritage? So far I haven't seen any apps that ask for city of birth, though she will have to mark 'naturalized' for citizenship. Generally, how will admissions officers even realize she is Asian until/unless she visits, of course!</p>
<p>"It means that the competition among Asians is astronomical, because we have not diversified by possible majors, types of institutions, socioeconomic class (unless you count Southeast Asians in the whole), and EC's. "</p>
<p>Why should Asians be competing mainly against other Asians for university slots? When White, Hispanic, or Black students talk about competition for college admissions, do they have to worry about competing against other members of their specific ethnic/racial group?</p>
<p>"Yet we want to blame AA (which here on CC usually means Black or Hispanic). Talk about not taking SOME responsibility. "</p>
<p>An Asian student who does well in school and wants to go to his dream school should be worrying about keeping his grades up, test scores, and EC's, not about going to a school he does not want to go to in order to increase diversity across the spectrum.</p>
<p>"Anyone look at the LACs and universities in the top tier of USN in the South that have low Asian percentages? How do you explain that trend?"</p>
<p>Simple. Asian students prefer to go to other schools.</p>
<p>"And, it is not surprising that AA detractors talk about Asians as a group, and sometimes do not make distinctions between Southeast Asian applicants and Japanese, Chinese, and Korean applicants."</p>
<p>Affirmative Action itself treats all Asians as a group. That's one of the many reasons AA has so many detractors. In fact, many AA detractors would strongly favor a policy which looked at socio-economic background instead of race.</p>
<p>"When White, Hispanic, or Black students talk about competition for college admissions, do they have to worry about competing against other members of their specific ethnic/racial group?"</p>
<p>Whites do, yes, but not as an "ethnic group." The compete against each other only if/when they follow a certain pattern that makes them far too similar from the point of view of a college. They're competing against each other's similarities, not against each other's ethnicity. There are upper middle class Caucasian students in the Northeast whose choices, accomplishments, opportunties, & backgrounds look quite similar, who attend similar styles of high schools within the same region. They are very much affected by decision priorities of admissions committes favoring the broadening of <em>overall</em> diversity not limited to race or ethnicity. When a college finds a highly accomplished Caucasian student (including both academics & non-academics) not from the Northeast and not upper-middle in wealth, & with higher profile or just very unusual e.c.'s, that student gets at least looked at quite carefully, & often gets admitted. </p>
<p>The sub-type of the "Bright, Well-Rounded Kid" (BWRK) -- different from the highly accomplished student -- was an overwhelmingly Caucasian Anglo segment of 5-7 yrs. ago that was considered so indistinguishable (& undistinguished) that they began to be ignored by admissions committees in favor of students of any ethnicity whose accomplishments were deeper rather than broader.</p>
<p>So the point is, the student of any ethnicity should stop following a particular pattern of that group if he/she does not want to be identified with that group because the behavior makes him or her so non-unique. Several decades ago, the elite private universities in this country were built on the sameness of accepted students, and those students were not largely Asian, but Caucasian. The first group to suffer from a change in admissions policies were not Asians, but Caucasians. These same universities of today are built on differences defined much more comprehensively than the element of ethnicity.</p>
<p>"So the point is, the student of any ethnicity should stop following a particular pattern of that group if he/she does not want to be identified with that group because the behavior makes him or her so non-unique. "</p>
<p>Even if you do not follow the particular pattern, you will be thrown into that categorization anyway because of your skin color. </p>
<p>Look back a few posts. Bookmom has a daughter who for all intents and purposes grew up white. And yet, she is worried about indicating her child's ethnicity on the application for fear of having her race handicap her chances for admission. The sad truth is that checking that dreaded "Asian" box will hurt you in college admissions.</p>
<p>I am connected with one of the best public high schools in the US by any statistical measure. The data from this experience supports the conclusion that without question Asians are discriminated against in college admissions. It is laughable to think otherwise. We have reams of data before Prop 209 in California to demonstrate this as well. But since Asians don't fit within the Trotskyite definition that academics and the Left have regarding who is oppressed (they generally have tight and caring family structures so of course they are privileged), they invoke no feelings of patronizing guilt and hence are treated poorly in the admissions game. </p>
<p>We will only get out of this mess when universities cease to admit students based on race, period.</p>
<p>Well goody for you. And I am connected with both college administrations & high schools on the professional end, and I can tell you that the data simply does not support race-based discrimination. It supports rejection & waitlisting based on a failure to differentiate oneself from one's peers -- either in the experiences of one's life -- the path one follows, and/or within the application efforts to college. Further, in my D's high school, every Asian student who was careful about the college list itself & thoughtful about the application succeeded in all that student's application efforts. That is in contrast to some of the accomplished Caucasian students, who were not successful if/when they were not persuasive about unique experiences & unique assets.</p>
<p>The admissions data to Princeton & Harvard, as merely 2 examples, does not support discrimination against Asians. Chinese, Korean, & Indian students are not just amply represented, but "over"-represented proportionally to their applicant pool numbers. And I'm sure that is how it should be; I have no doubt that H and P know exactly how & why those students are valuable & how they will succeed there. But it doesn't mean that 100% of high-scoring East Asians, for example, get to be admitted to HYP. Doesn't happen, & it's not going to happen. And that is not called discrimination.</p>
<p>seriously i wouldnt want like beijing to be the town of princeton lol</p>
<p>what's wrong with overrepresenting if all of them were just undisputably good?
you don't prove your point. </p>
<p>college admissions staffs are just cowards who don't dare to admit their dirty work period. </p>
<p>If they admit it, at least they're being responsible. overrepresenting just means most of them are just THAT good, and when you want to push the ratio down, you're using "diversity" as a high moral standard to cover up for the unfair game against asians.</p>
<p>sorry man but thats how it always will be, wherever you go on earth the majority dominates. And for those who dont believe in that from wherever you are the door is always opened to go back wherever yourr'e from. that is one of the great things about this country</p>
<p>i never said they can't do it. </p>
<p>I just said the ppl above don't prove any of their point.</p>
<p>"It supports rejection & waitlisting based on a failure to differentiate oneself from one's peers"</p>
<p>Sounds like you have a different set of criteria for judging Asian applicants(measured against Asian peers) and Black and Hispanic applicants. If you have 2 applicants from Spingfield High, why would the Asian applicant be measured against Asian applicants from completely different schools/cities/states and not against his Black classmate from the exact same school? Because you choose to evaluate your applicants based on their skin color? That's discrimination in a nutshell.</p>
<p>"Chinese, Korean, & Indian students are not just amply represented, but "over"-represented proportionally to their applicant pool numbers. "</p>
<p>This is also a complete lie. Chinese, Korean, and Indian students have some of the lowest acceptance rates of any groups in college admissions, even while having the highest scores.</p>
<p>Yes, us 'stupid, rich white kids' are taking all of the Asians' spots. <em>roll eyes</em>
Try being a 'stupid, rich white Jewish kid' We have it pretty bad in terms of AA. What a jerk.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Try being a 'stupid, rich white Jewish kid' We have it pretty bad in terms of AA
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Really? Are there any statistics out there that show the percentage of students who identify as Jewish in elite universities? Jews don't stand out as a "group" necessarily because they are considered white/"look white," unlike Asians, who are obviously physically Asian. </p>
<p>I think if you did a study on the percentages of Jewish people in elite universities, the numbers would be surprisingly high. Very, very high. </p>
<p>I don't think white Jewish kids have it worse than Asian kids. That would be stupid to claim. There are probably more Jewish people in elite universities than Asians. Decades ago there were actual quotas at Ivy League schools regarding the number of Jewish students they would accept. I doubt there are now. Asians are where Jews were at fifty years ago.</p>
<p>You guys are also forgetting the overwhelmingly high percentage of aliens enrolled in our nation's top percentages
Statistics have indicated that nearly 23.17% of the students at the top 25 schools have an extraterrestrial background.
Colleges are taking the whole diversity crap a little bit too far when they start preferring these aliens to us earthbound beings.</p>