Ask Sakky.

Pre-Med & Medical School Pre-Med Topics
1

<p>I've seen sakky post many times about how premed at schools such as MIT, Caltech, and Berkley is not smart and that one should go to schools like Princeton, Harvard, JHU for premedical studies. He based his arguments on the accept #s (77% for MIT and 92% for princeton for example). However, I found some data about the top med schools applied to and the accept rates from both Princeton and MIT.
Let's see how the common ones compare...
(from
<a href="http://web.princeton.edu/sites/hpa/2004.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://web.princeton.edu/sites/hpa/2004.pdf&lt;/a>
and
<a href="http://web.mit.edu/career/www/preprof/04acceptancedata.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://web.mit.edu/career/www/preprof/04acceptancedata.pdf&lt;/a&gt;)&lt;/p>

<p>Medical school...acceptance % (MIT/Princeton)...% of 2004 medical school class (MIT/Princeton)
Harvard........13/15....10/6
Cornell..........8/8.......10/5
Yale.............7/10......7/6
UPenn..........4/11......3/5
Tufts...........23/16.....12/5
BU...............19/20.....11/8
Duke............3/5........2/3
Mt. Sinai.......17/15.....10/8
Georgetown...10/17.....4/7
GWU.............6/5........2/2</p>

<p>If you look at the nubmers for what percentage MIT students make up, for example, the 2004 class of Harvard Medical School, it is astounding. 1 in every 10 are MIT undergrads. Of the 10 schools listed there, 5 of them have 10% or more of their class from MIT. The total number of applicants (150 of MIT) is comparable to the 120 from Princeton. So by those numbers, I'd say MIT is doing pretty well for it's premeds, at least just as well as Princeton. You can't just use the 77%/92% statistic to drown out other data.</p>

2

<p>Aha! This is why I never quoted this particular MIT website that you are now citing, because the numbers on your right-hand-side column are completely and demonstrably wrong. And it's easy to see. Let me show you.</p>

<p>Basically, what happened here on the MIT pdf document that you cited is that MIT made a glaring and stupid calculation mistake. For example, MIT says that 16 of its premeds got into Harvard Medical, and 8 got into Stanford, and 10 got into Cornell etc. etc. But then - and here's the glaring mistake - MIT then presumes that everybody who is admitted to a particular mistake actually attends. For example, MIT presumes that all 16 who got admitted to Harvard Medical actually go to Harvard Medical, and all 8 who got into Stanford Medical actually go, etc. etc. The PDF does this for every single school. </p>

<p>This is obviously false, because the fact is, not everybody who gets into a particular school will go. There are obviously going to be some MIT premeds who get into multiple med-schools, but will only actually only matriculate at one of them. You can't go to multiple med-schools at once. </p>

<p>If you don't believe me, check the document yourself, and you should be able to convince yourself that there is something extremely screwed up with the right-hand-column numbers. How convincing do you think it is that every single MIT premed who ever gets admitted to a particular med-school will actually go? That there are absolutely zero MIT premeds who ever get admitted to more than 1 med-school? Come on, be honest.</p>

<p><a href="http://web.mit.edu/career/www/preprof/04acceptancedata.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://web.mit.edu/career/www/preprof/04acceptancedata.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Any other questions?</p>

3

<p>I agree with sakky on this one</p>

4

<p>I calculated the Princeton percentages the same way the MIT ones are done so that remains constant between the two schools in the data I presented. It still is a fact that there are MORE, if not the same, number of MIT students accepted (if not matriculating - I guess we don't have that data) to most of these common schools in the data set than Princeton. Is Princeton underperforming and stooping to the MIT premed level? Or is MIT just not as bad as you are making it out to be?</p>

5

<p>Uh, what exactly do you mean you 'calculated' the Princeton percentages in the same way, and found that there are more MIT students accepted than Princeton students accepted at various schools? I think you proved it yourself in your first post here, in your left-hand-column. I trust that you did the calculation right, so I will repost your own calculation.</p>

<p>Harvard........13/15
Cornell..........8/8
Yale.............7/10
UPenn..........4/11
Tufts...........23/16
BU...............19/20
Duke............3/5
Mt. Sinai.......17/15
Georgetown...10/17
GWU.............6/5</p>

<p>So according to your own calculation, which I trust that you did correctly, out of the 10 med-schools that you examined, Princeton gets a higher percentage admitted in 6 cases (Harvard, Yale, Penn, BU, Georgetown, Duke), MIT gets a higher percentage admitted in 3 cases (Tufts, Mt. Sinai, and GWU), and one is a tie (Cornell). So not only is Princeton enjoying a higher premed admit rate than MIT in a 2:1 ratio in the schools you looked at (6 med schools vs. 3 med-schools), it also seems to me that the schools that Princeton are more successful at are of greater prestige than the ones that MIT are more successful at. Let's face. I'd rather be going to Harvard, Penn, Duke or Yale Med than I would to Tufts, Mt Sinai, or GWU Med. Not that the latter 3 are bad schools, it's just that we all know the former 4 are better.</p>

<p>Now, hey, I used your own calculations to do that. If you want to do a different calculation, please feel free. But I think you cannot escape the logic that Princeton seems better than MIT when it comes to med-school. Not that I'm saying that MIT is bad, because a 77% premed admit rate is still far better than the national average. However, my point has always been that MIT is not as good as peer schools when it comes to premed. Nothing more, nothing less.</p>

6

<p>The calculation I performed for the right side was I took the number of accepted students (% acceptance rate * number of applications) and divided that by the number of incoming students to the med school. If you want me to make it simpler, I'll show you this data:
Medical School...# of accepted students (MIT/Princeton)
Harvard........16/10
Cornell..........10/5
Yale.............7/6
UPenn..........4/8
Tufts...........21/9
BU...............17/12
Duke............2/3
Mt. Sinai.......12/9
Georgetown...6/12
GWU.............3/3</p>

<p>There it is! The number of students accepted from MIT and Princeton to each of the med schools. Theres no statistical manipulation here. Just pure facts in number of people. In 6 cases (Harvard, Cornell, Yale, Tufts, BU, Mt. Sinai), MIT has a higher number of students accepted. In 3 cases (UPenn, Duke, Georgetown), Princeton has a higher number of students accepted. GWU remains a tie. Going by your logic, MIT has more acceptances at top tier schools like Harvard, Cornell, and Yale. The overall number of acceptances to the list of schools in this data set (the common top med schools applied to from both MIT and Princeton) is higher for MIT (98 to Princeton's 77). If this trend is similar for the rest of the schools applied to (not in the top med schools applied to for both schools), it seems as though MIT is doing better for premed. Again, look at Harvard: MITs 16 acceptances as opposed to Princeton's 10. This is with a similar sized applicant pool of 150/120 students. I still do not understand how you can say MIT is not as good as peer schools, when it seems as though they are doing BETTER than the peer institutions.</p>

<p>P.S. Why did the topic name change to Ask Sakky? I had put it as "sakky rebuttal" and I thought it was a quite clear and appropriate topic header.</p>

7

<p>Aha, now I see what you're talking about, although I think even you must agree that the r.h.s. of the MIT pdf is flawed, because it presumes that every admitted MIT premed at a particular med-school actually goes to that med-school, which is clearly false.</p>

<p>Now, back to your point, it is true that there are more total MIT students than Princeton students that are admitted to (Harvard, Cornell, Yale, Tufts, BU, and Mt. Sinai. But that shouldn't surprise anybody considering that more MIT students than do Princeton students APPLY to each of these schools. When you have more total students applying, you are obviously going to get more total acceptances. </p>

<p>For example, let me print the raw number of total applications from MIT/Princeton at each of those 6 schools.</p>

<p>Harvard - 122/67
Cornell - 100/65
Yale - 95/62
Mt Sinai - 72/61
Tufts - 92/58
BU - 91/60</p>

<p>In each of these 6 cases, a far greater total number of MIT premeds are applying than are Princeton premeds to the given med-school. Should it surprise anybody that a greater total number of MIT premeds will then get admitted? You should expect such a result just by weight of sheer numbers. </p>

<p>Let's look at the remaining 3: Penn, Duke, and Georgetown. In each of these 3 cases, we found that the total number of Princeton admittances exceeded the total number of MIT admittances. Let's look at the total number of MIT/Princeton applications to those schools.</p>

<p>Penn - 92/70
Duke - 77/55
Georgetown - 61/71</p>

<p>In this case, still, 2 out of the 3 schools had more MIT students apply, and yet more Princeton students actually got admitted.</p>

<p>Hence, the only thing you have shown is that Princeton applicants spread out their applications far more than do MIT applicants do. MIT premeds tend to apply to certain schools a lot, and not just to the top med-schools, but also to local med-schools like BU and Tufts. Obviously if more of your students apply to a particular med-school, more of them will get admitted. But that doesn't mean that you as an individual MIT premed will get admitted to that particular med-school.</p>

<p>I'll give you a thought exercise. What if I was to consolidate all the UC's into one aggregate University of California, and look at the total premed acceptances for that aggregate "super-UC"? I'm sure I would find a huge number. Of course! That's because I would have a lot of applicants. Lots of applicants means lots of admittances. But what does that really mean? </p>

<p>I think the most relevant numbers are not the total number of admittances, but rather the percentage. That gets rid of the problems of just having lots and lots of applicants. And the fact is, about 90% of Princeton premeds are admitted somewhere, whereas 77% of MIT premeds are admitted somewhere. Furthermore, the percentage of Princeton premeds who are admitted to various med schools usually exceeds the percentage of MIT premeds who are admitted to those same medschools. That to me seems to be the most relevant statistic. </p>

<p>Now, don't get me wrong. I'm not 'enjoying' having to write abouit these statistics. I think MIT premeds are getting screwed. I wish it wasn't true that MIT premeds are having difficulty in getting into med-school. But the data seems to indicate that they are. I don't like it, but that's what the data says.</p>

8

<p>You can't use the "more applications" argument here. The applicant pool is similar (150 MIT to 120 Princeton)...so who's fault it is that Princeton students aren't sending out their applications? Maybe some feel like they don't have a shot. Still the fact is, if you get in to one of the med schools, you are a qualified student for that school. There are more qualified students getting in from MIT, regardless of how many apply. You can't take away the fact that they are qualified enough to get in just by saying "oh more people applied so obviously more have to get in." That's not true. The proportions don't hold for any larger applicant pools. If 500 students from MIT applied to Harvard, I assue you that 65 of them would not get in just because of the larger applicant pool. I'd guess that still around 16-20 students got in - because that's how many students were qualified from MIT to get into Harvard. So, sure more may have applied, but there were obviously more qualified students in the MIT pool, whereas that number is lower for Princeton.</p>

9

<p>Oh give me a break. You know as well as I do that if more Princeton students were to apply, the more that would have gotten in. You know and I know that admissions are not entirely predictable and not entirely linear. There are people who get admitted for inexplicable reasons. Hence, you cannot say for sure who is qualified to get into Harvard and who isn't. Harvard admits some people who have surprisingly low grades and MCAT scores. Not a lot, obviously, but a few. Hence, the point is, the more applicants you get, the more acceptances you will get, just from the 'surprise' admissions alone. Some people who didn't think they would get in will get in, just from the surprise factor. Again, it's not a linear relationship, but it is a monotonically increasing relationship. </p>

<p>Furthermore, the data from MIT is incomplete,whereas the data from Princeton is quite complete. The list of MIT premed applications only shows data from certain med-schools, not all. What's going on with the MIT premeds who apply to Johns Hopkins? What's going on at Washington U? What's going on at UCSF? We don't know. Yet these are some extremely highly regarded med-schools. We can see what is happening at Princeton with regard to those med-schools. Plenty of Princeton premeds apply to and get admitted to places like that. </p>

<p><a href="http://web.princeton.edu/sites/hpa/data98-03.htm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://web.princeton.edu/sites/hpa/data98-03.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>However, I think the far more interesting statistic is the one I have been touting the whole time - which is that about 90% of Princeton premeds get in somewhere, and 77% of MIT premeds get in somewhere. This to me should be the most dominating statistic. These other stats you are presenting are only talking about where certain premeds get admitted, but they don't deal with the most important question of all - which is: who can get in anywhere at all. </p>

<p>The fact of the matter is, the prestige of your med-school doesn't matter all that much, something that P<em>Sedrish</em>Md and other doctors here on this forum will back me up on. Sure, it's nice to get into a top-ranked med-school. But it's far more important just to get into any med-school. And it seems to me that MIT premeds have far more trouble getting just any med-school than do Princeton premeds. Again, 23% of MIT premeds get rejected from every med-school they apply to, vs. just 10% of Princeton premeds.</p>

<p>Now, you might say that perhaps this is due to more MIT students just 'taking a flyer' on an application to med-school, or just applying to only the top med-schools (if they can't get into a top one, they don't want to go at all). This is possible, but I think highly unlikely and if it is true, then downright foolish. I don't think too many people would just 'take a flyer' on applying to med-school just for the heck of it. Med-school apps, including taking the MCAT, is a grueling process. You would only undergo it if you were serious about being a doctor. And like I said, it doesn't really matter all that much where you go to med-school, just as long as you get in somewhere. I would think that MIT students, as smart as they are, would know this. Hence, it seems highly unlikely that there are just lots of unserious MIT premeds who are muddying the waters and lowering the overall admit rate to produce that 77% rate.</p>

10

<p>I guess we can't fully see what's going on without complete data from both schools. I still don't think we should be so quick to say that one school is better than the other for premed on only a bit of data. Otherwise, our arguing I guess is futile. Sorry if I offended you in my rebuttal, I didn't mean to, I just wanted to try and offer a different perspective. Again, without complete data, we can't be sure of anything. When I get to MIT in the fall, I'll go to the preprof office and see if I can obtain any more data and I'll be sure to relay it to you.</p>

<p>With regards to the "only applying to top med-schools" idea - I don't think that can be completely ruled out. Many MIT premeds are interested in doing research. (I'd safely venture to say that there are a higher number of them interested in research than at Princeton, just because of the nature of MIT students). When it comes to MD research, the general advice is to shoot for as high as you can get, because with research, the better the med school you go to, the better job opportunities you get. Supposing that students did not get into a top research med school, I could see many going for a Ph.D. with the possibility of pursuing an MD later. (This is what I am planning on doing - if I don't get in to a choice research med school, I would pursue a Ph.D. and then try for med school later on). There are many confounding variables but there is at least one possible explanation.</p>

<p>Again, I think both of us have been jumping to conclusions on only a bit of data that the schools provide to us. Who knows, let's see what happens.</p>

11

<p>I agree that the data is incomplete. I never said that this was an open-and-shut case. </p>

<p>However, the preponderance of evidence seems to strongly indicate that MIT premeds don't do as well as Princeton premeds, particularly on the question of whether they can get into any med-school at all, which I think is the most important question of all. We can talk about, of those who happen to get in, where do they get in, etc. but the most important hurdle to becoming a doctor is simply getting in somewhere, anywhere. </p>

<p>This whole notion of MIT students being more interested in research is one I've heard before, and seems to be a bit of a reach to me. The fact is, of the 120 med-schools out there, over 80 run MD/PhD programs. So it's not like being interested in medical research eliminates a vast swath of medical schools from consideration, in fact, only a minority are eliminated. I would imagine that MIT premeds who are really in the process because they want to do research are going to go for the MD/PhD. Furthermore, the fact is, for many if not most MD/PhD programs, if you are rejected from the MD/PhD program, you can get still get admitted to just the MD program. </p>

<p>Hence, the point is, even if you're only in it for medical research, there are plenty of 'safety schools' you can apply to for the MD/PhD. And even if you don't get into the Md/PhD program, you can still get admitted to just the MD program at that school. You might then turn it down, because, like you said, you'd prefer to just do a standard PhD program than do an MD at a no-name school. But the fact is, you still got admitted to that MD program. Which still means that the question of why is it that 23% of MIT premeds don't get in anywhere; that's still an open question. </p>

<p>Now, the only thing that might make sense to me is that MIT premeds are just not using safety schools. I agree that that might account for what is going on. But if that's true, then that seems like foolhardiness to me. It would seem to me that it's better to if you're going to go through all the pain of doing your MCAT's and filling out med-school apps, you might as well throw in some safety schools out there, even safety MD/PHD schools. Why not? You've already come this far, so what have you got to lose now? </p>

<p>So you might say that there's no point in applying to those safeties because if you can't get into a top-ranked MD/PhD program, you'd rather just get a regular PhD and then try for med-school later. Well, the problem with that is simple - you might complete your PhD, apply to med-school, and STILL not get in. Come on, you know what the odds are in getting into med-school. You know that you might have a doctorate and still not get into med-school. I think you're better off going for a no-name MD/PhD than taking the risk of getting just the PhD and then applying to MD school afterwards with no assurance that you'll get in. Or, at the very least, you should be applying to some no-name MD/PhD programs. If you get in, then you can think about turning them down. But by not even applying to safeties in the first place - that seems to be bravery to the point of foolhardiness to me. MIT students are smart, they ought to know better than that.</p>

12

<p>Now that you, sakky, due to your knowledge in so many areas of these topics, seem to have been elevated to a person anyone can ask questions to in this announcement-like thread, I just had one out of curiosity. I'm sure you've probably said this before at some time, but where are you currently in school or grad/professional school or working, and what schools in what subjects did you previously get your degrees from?</p>

13

<p>Ndhawk, I don't answer those kinds of questions publicly. However, my email and PM are open.</p>