Balancing "fit" vs. debt/financial aid in college choice

Parents Forum
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“And I’m not talking about all MBA programs–I’m specifically talking about top 15 full time MBA programs.”

Then you can’t just use a Wharton facebook page (as others have mentioned) for evidence of your claim. I’ve probably run into more MBAs in my roles than the Wharton article and shockingly most did not attend ivies, even the Wharton ones.

B-schools care about most about work experience, especially if you’ve held a managerial role, then gmat/gpa, diversity, service/volunteer, then probably undergrad college.

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@toomanyteens @itsgettingreal17 I am by no means advocating for fancy expensive MBA’s or jobs in finance or consulting at top firms. Remember, my D went to NYU for Musical Theatre! I did not anticipate that she would be applying to top MBA programs 5 years post graduation or that there were full tuition scholarships that she would be shooting for. I did, however, hope that going to a school with good academics and the option to minor in business and a strong English program could help her in future years. Which is why she attended NYU in the first place as an undergrad.

My point is that she choose to go in that direction and that going to a prestigious school helped her go to a top MBA school for FREE. And I’m saying that there are lots of people she knows who were applying to these tippy-top programs in the same cycle from state schools–and had business/ economics degree–who were struggling for acceptances, let alone money. And many of their friends (with lower stats, yet similar jobs) had an easier time from schools that were considered feeder schools.

My D had a unique background that made her stand out–but she was told by lots of people along the way that she wouldn’t have been considered (with a theatre background) at top programs if she went to a school without strong academics/ prestige.

Bringing the conversation back to the issue of fit and overall cost:

Personally, I don’t think that going for the money on the undergraduate level always pays off. Yes, you might save the money as an undergrad, but over time, you might not be ahead of the game if it means that your job outlook is more limited, your salary cap is lower, your chances to get into top programs for grad school is reduced and if you won’t be considered for as much graduate school scholarship money.

For some people, going to a less prestigious program is totally fine. But my D had loftier goals. Personally, if she had not gotten this full scholarship, I would have advocated that she go to Baruch College for her MBA and not take on a great deal of debt.

However, I will admit that she would not have landed the summer internship she did if she were not at NYU. The top pharmaceutical company that recruited her and offered her a brand marketing internship does not even recruit at Baruch.

I am not basing what I’m saying on the articles I posted in an earlier post. And yes, what I’m saying is 100% anecdotal. I have no research-based statistics. But those who are posting that the school you attend DOESN’t really matter are in the same boat, just with a different perspective. I’m just putting out there food for thought based on personal experience.

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The plural of anecdote is not data.

It does not matter where you go for undergrad. The only thing I think might matter is if the undergrad degree is in business. Elite MBA programs generally frown upon undergrad business degrees. So … get your BA in Classics then apply to HBS.

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@brantly I’m not saying I have data. I’m saying that what I’m posting is purely from personal observation and experience.

But so is what you and others have been saying.

It would be interesting to see real data on whether state school admission to top 15 full-time MBA programs and “feeder” school admission is the same before you counter my viewpoint.

Or data that shows that admission for business majors is lower than liberal arts majors. I’m an English major so I would totally hope to see this, btw…just don’t know if it’s true!

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“For some people, going to a less prestigious program is totally fine.”

Prestige is very subjective outside a handful of schools, NYU’s RD yield of 33% would not be considered prestigious. Now in theater of course, it’s very prestigious, so a lot of it depends on major. For engineering say, prestige doesn’t lie in the ivies but the public research colleges - Michigan, Berkeley, Ga Tech, UIUC, Texas along with Stanford, MIT, CMU.

“the school you attend DOESN’t really matter”

It matters some, but not as much as work experience, gpa/gmat, and other non-academic factors (fit, URM, interview, essay, recommendations etc.). BTW, it’s possible that NYU actually disproves your theory, not prove it (undergrad matters).

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Will a kid coming out of University of New Hampshire with a degree in Classics have the same graduate school opportunities as a kid with an undergrad degree in Classics from Michigan or Chicago? Likely not. Will a kid coming out of University of New Haven with a degree in English have the same opportunities- grad school, employment, professional school as a kid with an English degree from Yale down the block? Likely not.

But these extreme cases aren’t terribly helpful because these extremes aren’t usually the decision a parent is trying to help a kid make. It’s more like “Villanova vs. Penn State for Finance” where you could make an argument either way. And be right either way.

Employers and grad programs understand “prestige” in a very different way than the general public. Missouri M&T? Very prestigious for Mechanical Engineering. Rhodes College? very prestigious for History. Lawrence? very prestigious for Classics. Rutgers? Fantastic program in applied math and statistics.

Some colleges do get the benefit of a halo effect (Northeastern has some terrific programs and some just ok programs but the entire U has benefited from its rise in the last decade) and others don’t.

Figure out what your kid wants first. There is no sense in paying for Harvey Mudd or Swarthmore for a kid who wants to party for four years and major in beer pong.

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@theloniusmonk I agree that NYU is prestigious for theatre. It is also known that admission to its arts programs is based equally on talent and academics. NYU Stern is prestigious and is considered a feeder school to top firms and MBA programs. My D had a minor in business, but ultimately was able to take advantage of NYU’s reputation as a whole. Many excellent theatre programs are in institutions that are not known for their academics and D could have gone to those for much less money–but they would not have been an academic fit. Other theatre programs like NYU, Northwestern, Carnegie Mellon and University of Michigan are housed in more prestigious schools.

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“Fit” is a very subjective concept and it doesn’t always translate into the college you want to go to. College is a financial decision and cost plays a large role. If mom and dad can’t afford a private or out of state college, it’s not an option. Pick an instate option. If they can’t afford to pay anything, you may need to spend a couple years at community college, then go to school locally living at home.

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Interesting thread. As the product of public education and the owner / operator of a successful business, I see two certainties: 1. Anyone can make it (and do quite well) if they’re determined, resourceful and intelligent, and 2. There is an enormous advantage of being connected to the right folks that generally come from the alumni of highly selective and “elite” schools. To deny that is foolish or reflective of someone who doesn’t have experience working in certain levels of industry.

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We treated it as a three-legged stool. Academics was one leg, finances was another, and everything else was the third which for her included her sport/team. It’s nice to have all the legs the same length, but if one is a little short the stool still won’t wobble. However, if one leg is much shorter, it will be an uncomfortable seat.

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^^^very good analogy. The financial leg is what it is. You can only afford what you can afford. In our family, once the other two legs were properly adjusted, we decided to go with what we could afford, not what was the best deal. Two very different things.

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Yes, fit, finances and academics are three basics when looking for colleges to apply to. After the acceptances you can dive into the little nuances for the final choice.

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@iahomeschoolmom FWIW I talked to my DD’17 and asked her if given the opportunity to have a full ride at a particular college near us that has the “wrong” religion, she said she would probably take it and felt strong enough in her faith to get through it. She is frugal. But she also agreed the dating scene would be tough.

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For me, it depends on what your child wants to do after graduation.

My D wanted to teach, so she enrolled at a state school with a 5 year program leading to a masters in special ed. I saw no point in her attending a private school and accruing debt when the state schools offered what she wanted and grads were easily hired. After one year of teaching, she decided it wasn’t for her. I was so happy that she didn’t have any debt to show for her decision to leave teaching.

S17 is currently at a state school. He is in a theater program, studying tech. He is hoping to go directly to work afterwards. He didn’t have the grades to get into NYU and he was, frankly, not interested in living in Manhattan (we live in a suburb). None of the other theater programs that he got into was a better deal, financially or educationally. He will come out of college without debt, which will give him the chance to explore lower paying opportunities in his field. If he gets a job on Broadway, he can live at home or with his grandma while he gets settled.

To me, who came out of grad school with the equivalent of $100K in debt in today’s money, helping my kids to graduate debt free was paramount. Given my past, too, I was unwilling to take on any parental debt and paid for and am paying for their schooling with savings and current income. We get no FA.

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“Fit” is a very subjective term, and it’s often loosely used by kids who really want to go to a school the parents can’t really afford. The fact is that a college student can pretty much fit into any school and get good grades with the right attitude. A lot of kids don’t have a choice but to go to a local university. I knew couple of people who did that. One is a lawyer and the other is a surgeon.

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Fit for my kid included a sport, so not just any school would do. Other child had a major (theater) not available everywhere so we wanted to be a little more selective.

In this case, it’s the opposite. The parents CAN afford the school, but there is question about the fit.

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@techmom99 I’m with you. My son’s choices came down to McGill, BU, and Northeastern. He is a city kid by nature and knows that when he graduates he wants to live in a city…apartment, job, etc. McGill all in is around $30K per year all in; BU and Northeastern are both close to $70K per year. In the end (without my input) he chose McGill…he didn’t want the debt. What he figured out by talking to others is that the debt would significantly reduce his quality of life post-grad. Also, he admitted that McGill was his number 1 all along…he was just nervous about making a decision. So a win-win for him.

College is not the end game…it’s the bridge to adulthood. An elite school does not guarantee a better bridge to a better adulthood…not at all. But a huge debt load does definitely mean a reduced quality of life post grad.

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^^this, @SwimmingDad .

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@coolguy40 A one-size-fits-all attitude doesn’t work for college. And I don’t think I’ve EVER heard a kid use the word fit – they’re more likely to say things like “dream school” when they’re talking about fantasies they can’t afford. “Fit” is something we parents tend to worry about more.

In general, success is determined by hard work and luck. Connections and environment help a lot but aren’t necessarily essential.

That three-legged stool analogy is perfection. It’s a balance and all elements matter.