<p>Occidental is right near Los Angeles, an urban area, and is in California, which has a very ethnically diverse population. I don't think it is fair to use it as the basis of comparison to Kenyon (as far as diversity), which is located in rural Ohio.</p>
<p>It is very fair, because of the way they use their limited endowment. They could just as easily decide to enroll much wealthier students (there are colleges in the area that do), but they don't. There are schools in the midwest with endowments similar to Kenyon's that have made that commitment. It's not like Ohio doesn't have millions of minority residents.</p>
<p>To be fair, though, Kenyon would have to offer a compelling reason to attract them, when there are so many good choices available.</p>
<p>Kenyon gives merit scholarships specifically designated for minority and first generation college students (without regard to financial need) in addition to need-based aid. I just think it is difficult to recruit minority students to rural Ohio.</p>
<p>From the Kenyon website:</p>
<p>"Trustee Opportunity Scholars are top students who come from underrepresented backgrounds, including first-generation students."</p>
<p>They also have travel grants to encourage such students to visit Kenyon:</p>
<p>"The Trustee Opportunity Travel Grant program is one of several programs designed to encourage first-generation college students*, African-American, Asian-American, Latino/Hispanic-American, and Native American students to visit campus and learn more about Kenyon. The grants cover up to 90 percent of the lowest advertised airfares or up to $50 to offset driving costs. Eligibility for the program is determined, in part, by academic criteria.</p>
<p>As a high school senior, you may use a travel grant at any time during the fall semester, either for an individual visit or for a multicultural visit program. During a typical campus visit, you will sit in on classes, have an interview in the admissions office, tour the campus, and meet students and faculty. You may also choose to stay overnight with a student host. Overnight hosts are available Sunday through Thursday nights.</p>
<p>Please call Kim Totman at 800-848-2468 if you have questions about the program.</p>
<p>*neither parent has a degree from a four-year institution of higher learning"</p>
<p>
[quote]
Here you seem to suggest that Kenyon endorses and promotes drinking fraternities, which is the most ludicrous and ridiculous allegation I've heard today.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>The fraternities are promoted on Kenyon's website. This section of the student handbook seems to imply that the college officially sanctions fraternities and sororities on campus:</p>
<p>*Since its founding, the College has cherished the sense of community that exists among all Gambier residents. Kenyon fraternities and sororities have an important role in this pursuit. Members are encouraged to regard the community foremost and to become involved in a variety of campus and community organizations and activities. The fraternities and sororities presently recognized by the College are governed by the Greek Council, an agency of campus government. The fraternities and sororities of Greek Council are advised and supervised by an assistant director of residential life and the assistant dean of students/director of student activities. *</p>
<p>
[quote]
Just to let you know, the administrators at Kenyon aren't a big fan of Greek.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Why don't the administrators get rid of the fraternities, then? </p>
<p>
[quote]
I think it is absolutely unfair to compare Duke with Kenyon.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I didn't bring up Duke. Another parent, Berurah, did.</p>
<p>Let's dispense with the notion that Kenyon isn't generous because of their endowment - they are in fact quite generous (more so than Bates):</p>
<p>From the Common Data Sets (2006-2007)
Kenyon
Amount given out in institutional needs-based grant aid: $15,090,621</p>
<h1>of enrollees/# receiving needs-based grant aid: 1737/715</h1>
<p>% receiving needs based grant aid: 41.2%
Avg. needs-based grant: $23,583
Needs-based grant aid per student attending: $8,688 (if you compare this with the chart I ran yesterday, you'll find that this is substantially more - more than 22% more - than Brown; and the % receiving aid is similar to Williams (42.8%) which has an endowment more than 5X the size.</p>
<p>In addition, 395 students receive merit aid (not used to meet need). If you put it all together, Kenyon's aid rivals the top schools, though they tend to have a wealthier student body. (Oh, they meet 98% of need.) The data are very similar to Haverford's, except for the additional merit aid.</p>
<p>Bates:
Amount given out in institutional needs-based grant aid: $15,500,032</p>
<h1>of enrollees/# receiving needs-based grant aid: 1744/644</h1>
<p>% receiving needs based grant aid: 36.9%
Avg. needs-based grant: $25,535
Needs-based grant aid per student attending: $8,888 </p>
<p>From this, you can see that in needs-based aid, the two schools are virtually equal; but Bates clearly enrolls wealthier students than Kenyon, and you see 'barbelling" - lots of wealthier full-freight students, and more of their aid going to students with very high need. And significantly fewer students receiving any aid at all.</p>
<p>At both schools, median income would be well over $200k.</p>
<p>Mini,
I am sorry but I don't get your point. Is it that Kenyon does give aid to students with financial need but just is not successful in attracting a large number of minority students?
Are you praising or criticizing Kenyon in regard to your above post. I am confused.</p>
<p>I am neither praising nor criticizing. I am dispensing with the notion that Kenyon cannot attract low-income or minority students because of their low endowment, and with the notion that they are not particularly generous with need-based aid because of their small endowment. Neither turns out to be the case (relative to their peers, and certainly relative to Bates).</p>
<p>If they are not attracting low-income and/or minority candidates, there are reasons other than their endowment or their generosity. I can make a long list of possible reasons, but they are speculation. I expect geography and campus-cultural reasons would be on top of the list, and one must remember that these things are relative: it may not be because things are perceived as a problem by such students at Kenyon, but rather that they perceive more attractive options elsewhere.</p>
<p>Although my daughter chose to transfer from Kenyon because it was not the right place for her, it is an excellent school and I have a lot of respect for it. It is my impression that they try hard to attract minority students, but the very rural location makes it difficult to do so.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Evidence? This is not an approach I favor, but several schools have adopted it, and with overwhelmingly favorable results.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Here you go:
<a href="http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2007/02/16/drinking%5B/url%5D">http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2007/02/16/drinking</a>
"The current law, McCardell said in an interview Thursday, is a failure that forces college freshmen to hide their drinking ? while colleges must simultaneously pretend that they have fixed students? drinking problems and that students aren?t drinking. McCardell also argued that the law, by making it impossible for a 19-year-old to enjoy two beers over pizza in a restaurant, leads those 19-year-olds to consume instead in closed dorm rooms and fraternity basements where 2 beers are more likely to turn into 10, and no responsible person may be around to offer help or to stop someone from drinking too much.</p>
<p>Any college president who thinks his or her campus has drinking under control is ?delusional,? McCardell said, although he acknowledged the political pressures that prevent most sitting presidents from providing an honest assessment of what?s going on on their campuses. But he said that the dangers to students and institutions are great enough that it?s time for someone to start speaking out. While he was president at Middlebury, one of his students died, a 21-year-old who was driving after drinking way too much."</p>
<p>Oh see that, InterestedDad? A 21-year-old died from drink-driving at Middlebury. OH MY GOD. I will tell everyone on Earth to avoid Middlebury then, which of course is ridiculous.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Kenyon fraternities and sororities have an important role in this pursuit. Members are encouraged to regard the community foremost and to become involved in a variety of campus and community organizations and activities.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Where in this quote does it says that Kenyon promotes DRINKING fraternities? Is "regarding the community foremost and to become involved in a variety of campus and community organizations and activities" equivalent to drinking? Oh man, my dumb professor didn't teach that man.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Why don't the administrators get rid of the fraternities, then?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Easier said than done. Think of the repercussion effects with getting rid of the fraternities. From current students to alumni... To be fair, fraternities have contributed quite a bit to the founding of Kenyon College. And although I am not in a frat, I myself actually support the Greek life at Kenyon. It adds another dimension to campus life and like what I have said before, the Greeks here are different from most college campuses. For example, they do not take things as seriously compared to other colleges and I so far have not heard of anyone being barred from entering a Greek party.</p>
<p>"McCardell said, although he acknowledged the political pressures that prevent most sitting presidents from providing an honest assessment of what?s going on on their campuses. But he said that the dangers to students and institutions are great enough that it?s time for someone to start speaking out."</p>
<p>He couldn't control his own campus, in an environment virtually free from outside pressures, and surrounded by mountains, couldn't even protect his own students at Middlebar, and now he is an expert on the subject? </p>
<p>"Any college president who thinks his or her campus has drinking under control is ?delusional,? "</p>
<p>Since I do this for a living, and have the data on hundreds of campuses (data which I doubt McCardell has even bothered to examine), I think it is McCardell who is delusional.</p>
<p>
[quote]
McCardell also argued that the law, by making it impossible for a 19-year-old to enjoy two beers over pizza in a restaurant, leads those 19-year-olds to consume instead in closed dorm rooms and fraternity basements where 2 beers are more likely to turn into 10, and no responsible person may be around to offer help or to stop someone from drinking too much.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I doubt very much that the young man who died at Kenyon was drinking alone at the frat parties. There were other students around who could have stopped him from drinking too much.</p>
<p>In many cases, those other people wait til the guy becomes unconscious and then scribble obscenities on his body with magic markers while he is dying.</p>
<p>I'm not picking on Kenyon. Of the four colleges posed in this thread, it's possible that I might pick Kenyon as my favorite alternative. I'm just saying that I would want to look a little closer at the campus culture, especially in terms of frats and drinking. But, that's just me. Others would probably choose the school with the biggest party scene. That's valid, too.</p>
<p>McCardell is so out of touch that he thinks students are dying from beer! Geesh - no wonder he is no longer at Middlebar.</p>
<p>Any student at Middlebar can have a pizza delivered by dogsled to her commodious abode, and drink two beers or ten anytime she pleases. And they do.</p>
<p>I've yet to hear of a pizza-and-beer death anywhere in the country.</p>
<p>"Any college president who thinks his or her campus has drinking under control is delusional, "</p>
<p>I don't think any college presidents, even those at low binge drinking schools, are ever really comfortable with the drinking risks. If nothing else, their liability premiums keep them grounded.</p>
<p>
Anyone who needs to depend upon others to make this personal decision for him is not ready to be turned loose on a college campus with little to no supervision. Part of being ready to go off and function on your own is having the wisdom and maturity to be able to make smart decisions about these types of things. It is not the friends' responsibility to stop this boy from drinking too much. GREAT if they do, but chances are that they were equally impaired. If you can't count on the parents or the college or other adults to monitor this or to instill the learning necessary to make sure the kid makes good decisions, it seems ridiculous to entrust this to equally immature peers. It is much better (and more effective) for a kid to make this decision for himself.</p>
<p>~berurah</p>
<p>Good one, berurah!</p>
<p>
[quote]
I doubt very much that the young man who died at Kenyon was drinking alone at the frat parties. There were other students around who could have stopped him from drinking too much.</p>
<p>In many cases, those other people wait til the guy becomes unconscious and then scribble obscenities on his body with magic markers while he is dying.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>My dear Interesteddad, please do get your facts right before you make any judgments. </p>
<p>From a Kenyon publication: The Franklin County coroner's office determined that first-year student Colin Boyarski, whose body was found in a field near campus on April 3, died of acute alcohol intoxication. Hypothermia was named as a secondary cause of death.</p>
<p>What this means is that:
1) Colin passed out when probably returning to his dorm after the party
2) There wasn't any one around Colin when he passed out (which makes the allegations of "scribbling obscenities on his body with magic markers while he is dying" unfounded of course)</p>
<p>In addition, how can you actually depend on your friends to stop you from drinking too much? Everyone has different alcohol tolerance and I for example can't tell with precise accuracy how high/low of alcohol tolerance one has. And also, it is almost impossible to monitor the number of drinks your friend takes in a party.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I'm just saying that I would want to look a little closer at the campus culture, especially in terms of frats and drinking. But, that's just me. Others would probably choose the school with the biggest party scene. That's valid, too.
[/quote]
And I will tell you that you have not gotten a true sense of the campus culture at Kenyon.</p>
<p>^^ Well, Kenyon_10, You're just the type of example I was citing when I referred to students with great levels of intelligence, awareness, and personal responsibility! :) You represent your college honorably! Good goin'!</p>
<p>"Anyone who needs to depend upon others to make this personal decision for him is not ready to be turned loose on a college campus with little to no supervision."</p>
<p>Guess that means admissions offices are not doing a very good job (a sentiment with which I heartily agree.)</p>
<p>
How CAN the admissions offices do a good job when they get a few pages about each applicant, pages upon which the applicant is painting the brighest picture of himself possible? :confused: Why would you hold the SCHOOL responsible for this decision when you wouldn't hold the PARENT responsible....the parent who has presumably raised the kid for 18 years and is familiar with his day-to-day conduct? The school gets a "snapshot" of each of however-many thousands of kids. The parents have a level of information that is in NO way comparable to what the colleges receive. Let me put it THIS way....if I felt that my kid, for whatever reason, lacked the level of maturity and self-discipline to function in an environment which concurrently provides the GREATEST privilege with the LEAST responsibility, I would not send him away to school. But that's just me. I will not count on ANYONE else to make that decision for me. The repercussions could be too serious and life-altering.</p>
<p>~berurah</p>
<p>
[quote]
How CAN the admissions offices do a good job when they get a few pages about each applicant, pages upon which the applicant is painting the brighest picture of himself possible?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>One thing an a school can do is ban fraternities and take other steps in admissions marketing to make things less attractive to problem drinkers.</p>
<p>Another thing they can do is provide a sufficiently rigorous academic challenge that drinking your way through college is difficult.</p>
<p>Since demographic correlations with problem drinking are well-known, a third thing a college can do is accept fewer students from the problem drinking pool and more students from the non-problem drinking pools. For example, increase diversity in the student body and your school's overall binge drinking rate will almost certainly decline. Just play the odds.</p>
<p>
There is a good deal of drinking within the h.s. populations, and there are no frats there. The increase in drinking at the college level also has something to do with the decreased level of supervision and not only frat involvement. Also, to generalize about frats in this way is to do a disservice to the ones that provide an essentially positive experience for their members. And this is coming from someone whose son is not a frat member and is generally not a fan of frats for reasons unrelated to alcohol usage.</p>
<p> [quote] Another thing they can do is provide a sufficiently rigorous academic challenge that drinking your way through college is difficult.
HUH?? I know brilliant kids who have functioned very well academically while spending most of their free time drunk or stoned. Are you saying that there is a great deal less alcohol abuse at the ivies and other elite colleges? Also, this could backfire. The more stress a kid is placed under, the more he may be susceptible to this type of "relaxation."</p>
<p>
[quote]
Since demographic correlations with problem drinking are well-known, a third thing a college can do is accept fewer students from the problem drinking pool and more students from the non-problem drinking pools.
[/quote]
Again, HUH?? I mean, to generalize to an entire pool of applicants like that would be GROSSLY unfair and discriminatory. Should schools not "take the chance" on kids who come from poorly achieving schools (many times lower SES areas) because the stats would state that these kids might be less apt to succeed in a rigorous academic setting? My son was the first person EVER accepted to Duke from our school. He is currently ranked in the top 2% of his class there. What if the admissions office, in its effort to respect "demographic correlations," had not taken a chance on him? What you are proposing is just WRONG.</p>
<p>~berurah</p>