Battle Hymn of the Tiger Mother - new book about Chinese parenting

Parents Forum
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<p>That´s bull. Those parents were just as vested in their kid´s sports career. We see enough of dads´getting into fights on the field, cheerleader moms sabotaging other girls. Some of those “white parents” have also figured out that ticket to top schools for their kids is through sports, and they are just as cut throat as Asian parents when it comes to sports.</p>

<p>It is self serving to say that only Asian parents push their kids, and white parents are doing all of those things to support what their kids want to do.</p>

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<p>calmom, there was just a funny part where her friends’ dogs were well-trained and she started looking up intelligence rankings of her dogs (Samoyeds) compared to other dogs and was upset that they weren’t ranked highly enough. She and her husband were having an argument and she said something about what were his dreams for their daughters and what were his dreams for the dog. She wanted her dog to basically be better than anyone else’s dogs. It struck me as very funny. I think he must love her a lot to put up with her.</p>

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<p>A lot of people forget that, don’t they? The post- Mao, post- Gang of Four era of technocratic rule might have loosened economic controls characteristic of Communism, but that doesn’t mean that their political system is any more Utopian than it was in the 1960s and 70s. </p>

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<p>I especially like the terms “Asian parents” and “Asian culture”. What does that even mean? That’s like saying “European parents” – with the understanding that Ireland, Turkey, Czechoslovakia, and Finland are all culturally homogeneous. The actual book doesn’t even attempt to create a script for *all Asians everywhere<a href=“she%20focuses%20on%20Chinese%20immigrants%20to%20the%20United%20States,%20at%20least%20right%20now”>/i</a> and indeed is a little different than the publicity would imply.</p>

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<p>I think that the dog could teach her a lot about life. Like the how to relax and enjoy things part.</p>

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<p>Wow so many parents on this thread are so blatantly racist I find it hard to even envision that adults are typing these posts.</p>

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<p>The dog did teach her a lot about life. That was part of the story. She said Chinese mothers don’t get dogs. Really, you should read it. It was good.</p>

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<p>^ i agree. this thread is very racist. seems the moderators would close it, but i’ve seen equally racist threads live a long life on college confidential. makes u wonder…</p>

<p>america has a loooooong way to go with respect to race relations. a very long way!</p>

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<p>True that. We live in an area that is highly competitive. There are a fair number of asians here, now, but there haven’t always been, and it is no more competitive now than it used to be. </p>

<p>I wish I’d known about some of those academic math extras I now know Asian parents use for their kids. I think it was a missed opportunity, personally.</p>

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<p>I’m a student at an Asian-dominated school (I’m Asian) in California and I just want to say that this type of parenting does not hold true at my school. Rather, it is the complete opposite - we students here are self-motivated, even though our mindset is similar to Chua’s. Yes, we do certain things that look “good” on our college resume, but we don’t need the push that Chua has to give her kids. Even though we’re not being pushed by our parents, a good majority of us will still push ourselves to the limit. Not all of us are forced to excel or to engage in meaningless ECs. </p>

<p>Success doesn’t necessarily begin with the parents. While I’m sure that many kids in other schools are forced to do well, just as many are self-motivated and driven to succeed.</p>

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<p>That IS ********. Please, parents get so ridiculous about sports. My friend’s (white suburban boy who plays hockey) dad beat him with a belt after he didn’t get a hat trick. My other friend was sent to boarding school for hockey; he had a whole life at home but his dad always dreamed of seeing him play for the NHL. </p>

<p>I personally grew up in a mix of this style of parenting, both my parents are immigrants but much more reasonable than this woman. I have a social life, a boyfriend and choose my extracurriculars with the exception of violin, which I’ve grown to love. And yes, prestige is thought of highly in our family. But a lot of that stuff is just me.</p>

<p>My parents definitely don’t spoil me. But if I want anything that will help me educationally, they’ll pay for it. And that includes college tuition. Yeah, I give up the new cell phone every Christmas, but with all of my friends families scrambling to pay for college, I’ve never been more grateful they saved for my tuition instead.</p>

<p>I live in a primarily white neighborhood (one of three Asians in my entire school) and I do actually get frustrated with the people around me sometimes. I don’t know why, but a lot of students who were raised in a severe “American-parenting” style are incredibly self-entitled and disrespectful to their parents. I’m an ABC too; it’s just like if my parents tell me not to do something or to do something–I do it. I don’t lie to them and I don’t go out and take their allowance money to buy weed and yell at them when they don’t buy me everything I want. I don’t take advantage of their trust. A lot of my friends parents want so badly to be loved and liked by their kids and their kids’ friends, they forget they’re not a friend, they’re a parent. Just a culture clash I guess.</p>

<p>So here’s a kid (I guess) whose grateful (and happy) about my moderate Asian-parenting. I was also the more rebellious of the two of us ;] Anyways, sorry for the long post!</p>

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<p>Please explain why it is racist to discuss, and both agree and disagree with, the SELF-reported parenting behavior of someone who describes that behavior in ethnic terms? Among all of the possible adjectives or nouns Chua could have used to identify herself for the purpose of the book: ambitious, well-educated, high-achieving, driven, helicoptering, lawyer, author, etc. SHE chose CHINESE. She herself put everything in that cultural context.</p>

<p>I haven’t seen anyone post that they dislike or hate Chinese people, or think the Chinese race is inferior, or anything even remotely approaching that. Posters have stated their disagreements with Chua’s parenting style, as well as various aspects of what Chua describes as the Chinese parenting philosophy. That is not racist. Furthermore, plenty of posters have pointed out the fact that not all Chinese people parent this way, that there are non-Chinese people who also parent this way, that quite possibly the book is a self-deprecating joke anyway, etc. etc.</p>

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<p>I had the opportunity to read the WSJ article after my daughter forwarded the link. How true it is, but I hold no remorse in raising my daughters that way. So many snipits from the article are so exact, from the initial lists of “not allowed” to “plenty of praises inside the home”, this story could be straight from our home. I am an ABC father (2nd generation). My wife is Chinese and came for her studies in 1980 where we met at college and the rest was history. In some ways, I am a little more lenient than my wife when it comes to the children, but I would have to say that its more the male personality than it is the western culture. Yes, we worked with our children all the time, from elementary school to college and now on to grad school. In fact, my wife worked with our oldest daughter this summer for her GRE. I believe there is a parent-child relationship in our family that allows for the never ending learning opportunity. My children are smarter than my wife and I, but they know that we (as parents) learn the material (no matter what it takes or how many hours) and help them in their academic endeavors. I am sometimes lost when many western parents blame the teachers or the curriculum for Johnny’s poor grades. All the while, their at the tennis lessons or socializing at the subdivision clubhouse. Additionally, short attention spans with immediate feedback is another fault attribute that i have witness. We live in a world of instant gratification and this concept is passed from parents to children. I’ve seen so many people on such short leashes and always confronting each other in the workplace. It is rather disturbing, but commonplace in the work environment. Even though many on this post will defend the western practice and attempt to degrade the Chinese way, I for one - who was born and raised in America - totally believe in the Chinese way and hope that my children will observe the same.
Finally, it is true, as the father of 2 daughters, I’ve have had to watch my daughters read acceptance and denial letters from top tier colleges, and it hurts. As Asians, we have to work that much harder and be that much better just be on equal footing. I don’t believe in Affirmative Action, its a bunch of bull to help give the unqualified or “not as intelligent” the same opportunity. If this happened in the workplace, it would be racists, discriminatory and legal action would follow. I know first hand, some inferior kids given acceptance because of who they are, an not on their on achievements and merits.
In closing, my generation did it (myself, my wife, my family, her family), my children did it, I hope their children do it, I support it and believe whole heartedly in it. Whether its a way of life or cultural difference, it is something that I’m proud of and hope that this principal is not lost in future generations. We only hope that these life long lessons of pride, achievement, and learning that we have instilled upon our children are passed to their children. BTW, there is definitely plenty of praise to go around within the confines of our own home :)</p>

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<p>Just finished the book. It’s more nuanced and she is more self aware, though she certainly is wound tight in general. The obsession with music is over the top and the husband seems ineffectual.</p>

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<p>China for sure not a democracy but neither is it a dictator commanded fear state. No country state in the annuals of human history has increased the standard of living for so many of its people so quickly as the modern state of China. That’s a fact. </p>

<p>As for being Communist? They have become (by necessity) increasingly lousy at that.</p>

<p>Would I want to live there? No.</p>

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<p>My husband and I are Chinese-American parents with two kids and it’s people like Chua who gives us a bad rep. The best parenting advice I have for anyone who wants it - regardless of race, ethinicity, socio-economics - is to simply love your children. Unfortunately, this common sense advice doesn’t sell books (or pay for private school tuition!).</p>

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<p>As a marketing ploy for selling books, this seems like a great idea (and clearly it’s working well, her publishers are probably planning a sequel). As a parenting tactic, it probably works less well. My parents managed to drive home the message that achievement, hard work, and discipline were key without anything nearly so extreme. They even allowed me to have a normal social life (I loved sleepovers!). I admit however that I never became very good at the piano since they did not constantly hound me about it, but fortunately that has had zero impact on either my professional or academic progress.</p>

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<p>You are wrong.</p>

<p>It would be misguided to directly compare percentages in America and China due to the startling socio-economic differences between the two nations (China still has a huge rural population).</p>

<p>In America, a more accurate comparison would be to judge Asian-Americans against Caucasian Americans (which I assume you meant, and which is the comparison that Mrs. Chua illustrates in her book) in the American college system. In that case, Asian-Americans make up roughly 5% of the United States, but account for about 20% in the top colleges in America.</p>

<p>Moreover, if you want an even MORE accurate comparison and would like to compare Asians not living/raised in America, you could make a very practical comparison with South Korea, which has a relatively similar socio-economic situation with the U.S., but shares the same appreciation for hard work and a culture of prioritizing education similar to that of the parenting style outlined in Mrs. Chua’s book. South Korea currently sends about 70% of its high-school age students off to post-secondary education, and more than 50% to four-year universities, which is higher than the U.S. South Korea is also known as a powerhouse in sending international students abroad to top-level institutions across the world, including those in the U.S.</p>

<p>Sorry for the rather drawn out response!</p>

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<p>I was raised similarly to the children in this book. There are Chinese cultural reasons as to why children should always listen to their parents, but it’s also a product of my parent’s generation and their upbringing. They grew up during the Cultural Revolution, have seen much more in life than I have, and as loving parents want me to avoid pitfalls that they’ve seen or experienced. </p>

<p>I view life as a way to bring happiness to myself and loved ones. I feel that my parents at 18 saw life as a struggle to make a living, a mentality of survival that’s carried over to the land of the plenty. Moreover, investment in children (child for most Chinese parents) has probably gotten even more intense over the past 20 years, given the one child law policy and the economic difficulties or raising multiple children in a new country.</p>

<p>I think there are good and bad aspects to the Chinese method of parenting. One line that I liked from the WSJ article was that everyone, especially children, have a natural aversion to work. In some circumstances, a career is not about doing what you love, but rather, about excelling at what you can tolerate and loving the benefits that come from being the best. To further my argument, I can’t imagine doing what I currently love (playing video games) for 40-60 hours a week for 20-30 years. </p>

<p>However, I feel that Chinese parenting can only go so far and parents shouldn’t control every aspect of their child’s life. Many times, Chinese parents give quite terrible advice given that success in the workplace is in large part determined by soft skills and cultural homogeneity. Play a team sport, go drinking in high school, and share in the common middle-class American experience. I apologize if this seems offensive but I think that it’s important in many careers to fit in and be socially aware, something that’s not possible if you participate in activities that are largely solitary such as music or even tennis.</p>

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<p>I am not going to buy the book because I’m not going to pay this woman to write a self-help book, first of all. Essentially, it sounds no different than any other parenting book:</p>

<p>“My kids turned out the way I wanted, or at least one did, and I am going to attribute this to how I treated them.”</p>

<p>I think this premise is in and of itself total cr*p.</p>

<p>Of course the way we treat our children will have an effect on how they turn out, but there are so many other factors. In this woman’s own case, her affluence and the IQ of her children (both she and her husband are high-achieving professionals, so they are at least naturally above-average) must be a huge contributing factor.</p>

<p>She says her daughter is polite, but at THIRTEEN smashed a glass on the floor? Granted, it’s in Russia, where I’ve seen more than a few glasses smashed on floors, but that’s not polite anywhere in the world. Done by a child, it’s nothing short of shocking. Plus, she’s still in high-school! Let’s see her in college when she has some real freedom. I sincerely hope for both of the girls’ sakes that they find all the success they want in life, but parenting is no guarantee.</p>

<p>Basically it sounds like a book about how awesome she is. If you have to write a book to justify to yourself that you are a good parent, you should ask yourself why you couldn’t just be happy about it like the other awesome parents of successful kids.</p>

<p>As for high-achieving Asian kids: It’s the same formula for high-achieving children of any family: High expectations + support and a facilitating environment + a level of inborn, internal motivation = Success. You don’t have to be a “tiger” (or b****) about it. I think that many immigrants have higher expectations for cultural reasons and have not been taught by Western psychologists to hold back their opinions or expectations, but any decent parent anywhere will treat their child with respect.</p>

<p>FWIW, I know many great, loving, wonderful Chinese-American, Japanese-American, German-American, Indian (sub-continent)-American and white-American parents who have high expectations and still manage to treat their children with respect. I don’t see how this woman represents China at all, except that I have heard that the middle-class in China is so incredibly competitive that expectations are through the roof. And I’m sure that the one-child policy and the huge population relative to professional opportunities have something big to do with this.</p>

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Agree wholeheartedly.</p>