<p>It would be interesting to find out the percentage of Chinese kids that go to college and the percentage of American kids that go to college. While I am willing to bet the number of Chinese kids in college is higher, I bet by percentage more Americans get the opportunity to attend college. I may be wrong.</p>
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<p>Right. Which is why I say – how “smart” of a culture is it, that doesn’t open its eyes, look around, and figure this out? Coming up with all the right answers on a bubble test does not smart make. Part of being smart is figuring out what the world is like, and in the case of a student applying to American colleges, more of tennis-violin-math isn’t a smart move at all.</p>
<p>Don’t you worry. Give them a little time They’ll figure it out. Given the short time they had in the US, they have done very well. I doubt they could’ve accomnplished as much without smart.</p>
<p>PG wrote
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<p>Yet at least 20% of the student body at almost all top institutions are Asians. That figure points to the fact that many Asian students are way smarter than just “tennis-violin-math”. </p>
<p>BTW, Amy used some extreme cases to sell more books. I personally don’t think Chinese mothers are that much different than any other mothers in general.</p>
<p>Best parody yet:</p>
<p>[The</a> Only Thing I Will Say on the ‘Chinese Mother’ Debate - James Fallows - International - The Atlantic](<a href=“The Only Thing I Will Say on the 'Chinese Mother' Debate - The Atlantic”>The Only Thing I Will Say on the 'Chinese Mother' Debate - The Atlantic)</p>
<p>Chua’s kids are genetically blessed–they have two brilliant, talented and accomplished parents. I’ll be convinced of the effectiveness of her methods when she adopts two random kids from an orphanage in a third world country and shepherds them into becoming all-A students and musical prodigies.</p>
<p>The most reprehensible thing about Chua is that she is willing treat her whole family like a carnival freak show in order to make money.</p>
<p>^^^It’s the American way…see any child-centered reality tv show from the Duggars on down.</p>
<p>Re post #276
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<p>But the difference may be that in many cases the child, not the parent, was the driving force. At least in my family it was that way.</p>
<p>I mean, look at those families and ask yourself what happens if the kid wants to quit? In my family, the penalty for a kid refusing to practice a musical instrument was that after a set time the parent quit paying for lessons. That can provide a kid with a quick exit if they don’t enjoy something, but that also can provide positive incentive for the internally motivated kid.</p>
<p>OK, so we have huge numbers of Jewish (or any other ethnic groups) doctors, lawyers, accountants, investment bankers, musicians who went to Ivy schools. But the reason that they are overrepresented in these professions are that they are smart,have passion, are driven and self-motivated. They love their jobs and are incredibly happy.
However, the Chinese doctors, lawyers, accountants, investment bankers, musicians who went to Ivy schools got there because they are pushed, dragged and conspired with their parents who will accept nothing less because they are money hungry and prestige obsessed. They are miserable and need to seek therapy down the road.</p>
<p>^^ If you think there aren’t battles in Jewish households about Hebrew school, musical instrument practice, and homework, you are much mistaken. Why do you think we invented therapy?!</p>
<p>Amazing how much discussion this generated, I hear on the Wall St Journal site where there was an article about this book, at last count it generated 2500 comments, when the most hot topics usually are about 250.</p>
<p>It is also interesting to read the responses and see the variations out there. We have those who completely scoff at the achievement of Asians in things like schools, argue that beating a kid (figuratively or literally) doesn’t work, we have those who proclaim Chinese kids superhuman or somehow intellectually above all other groups, those who see the success of Asian kids and then suddenly it becomes “We have to copy that model, that is the superior model”, much as we heard 30 years ago that Japanese business models and education were ‘the way to go’ (last I heard, Japan was debating adopting the educational system of India…). </p>
<p>I think we have to be careful about the term smarter, for a number of reasons. A kid can get 4.0 GPA’s, even in difficult subjects, by gutting their way through it, by studying hard and gaining mastery basically by rote in many cases. That isn’t saying Asian kids in this case aren’t smart, only that they don’t need to be supermen to do so. If Asians in fact were super human, they would be doing a lot better then they even are today, they would be controlling everything out there, and obviously that isn’t true (for the very simple reason that even among results oriented groups, like Asians and Jews or any group for that matter, those positions are filled by outliers).</p>
<p>Asians (I prefer that, because though very different people, Chinese, Koreans and Japanese share some common items that fall into this discussion) are not unique in this, similar elements were at work with people of Jewish background. To this day, I believe of any group in this country, the Jews have the highest rate of advanced degrees, for example. Why? Take a look at Jewish culture, and you see many similarities. The stressing of education (if in perspective slightly different ways), of family involvement in what the kids do and so forth. With Jews, there also was the community aspect, where for example in a temple when a kid needed help with a class, older kids would be asked to help them. And depending on background, you saw a lot of what we are talking about with Asian kids today. If you look at classical music, for example, it was dominated for many years, especially on the violin, by Russian Jews, people like Millstein and Ostraikh and Heifetz. In czarist Russia, and then in the Soviety days, Jews were incredible discriminated against, Russia then or now is not particular Jewish friendly, and music was one of the ways that Jews could gain some sort of life. For example, the families of Jewish music students at the St. Petersburg conservatory could be out after the curfew that had been placed on Jews in Russia, and if the child was successful it could mean a better life. In other places, this carried over when Russian Jews moved elsewhere. Likewise, given the hard times Jews often had in their history, when offered the chance to succeed, specifically here in the US, they grabbed at it…and Jewish mothers had the kind of reputation that "Chinese Mothers’ often have today. </p>
<p>I think you have to be careful about the hype, and also look at what you want for your child and their life. Yes, having kids work hard on schoolwork, single mindedly focusing them on ‘success’ in the form of getting great grades the way this mom did, of basically structuring their whole life, is going to pay off, there is no doubt if you measure things like achievement in school. With music, Asian kids are pushed into music very early, and yes they have the believe that achievement on an instrument is going to grease the skids with getting into high level colleges (which is debateable, but it is a perception). But is that the best way for all kids? I would be very doubtful about that. If your idea of achievement is to have that 4.0 GPA with the ‘proper’ ec’s and focus on an ivy league education, to get that job as a lawyer or doctor and have the big house and big car, you can go well with that…</p>
<p>But is that the only way to success? Is that the only success? There are absolutely brilliant people who didn’t go this route, and helped create large part of the industries we rely on today, the crazy hackers at MIT in the mid 60’s often never bothered to finish school because they were too busy creating all kinds of wild things. Bill Gates never finished harvard (not sure if Paul Allen did) and Steve Wozniak when he built the Apple 1 didn’t have a degree…you get my drift.</p>
<p>The other problem with parents determining everything is I quest whether parents always know best, that this methodology always creates great outcomes, and I am not sure about that. How many of these kids, faced with this kind of rigid control, end up cracking up? How many of them rebel eventually and end up taking a harder path? Yo Yo Ma talks about his relationship with his father (who in his case was the dominant one), and he said if he followed the path his father wanted him to do in music, he never would have become what he is today…a kid forced into becoming a doctor or investment banker by his parents because that is ‘good’ in their parents eyes may not do very well, even though they have the education and everything else, and may end up resenting it. I see this in music all the time, kids whose parents for whatever reason push them into music, specifically on the violin, cello and piano, and while the kids achieve technical mastery, watching them play is a saddening experience, they play the music technically well but all you sense behind it is pain and resentment, not love or passion. You also see the parents pushing that the kid plays harder and harder repertoire at an early age, and you have the ridiculous display of a 10 year old playing the beethoven violin concerto which looks and sounds horrible…</p>
<p>There was an article not long ago in the NY Times about college education in China that might raise questions, and what they were pointing out was that the kids who were coming out of Chinese colleges, presumably taught the way the book talks about, come out with great grades and such, but find themselves when they apply for jobs with corporations located in china, can’t cut the mustard. McKimsey and Co, who are not exactly anti chinese, have said that about 10% of the kids coming out are employable coming out of college, and the commentators (who were asian themselves) made the point that the brute force, rote education to facts was part of the problem…</p>
<p>There is another thing to think about, what happens to these kids later, do they end up as happy adults, do they end up being fulfilled, which may be very western ideas to some, but which manifest themselves in many ways. Can someone who is doing something for money alone be passionate about it (some can, of course). Will someone whose whole life is focused narrowly upon the goals this woman is talking about, truly find a way to be creative and innovative when all that was values was learning facts to get good grades? Can a musician appreciate the music, when all that was valued was ‘getting ahead’, playing perfectly by rote practice, and actually be a performer anyone would want to watch? (put it this way, lot of these kids get into the pre college programs, where they display no interest in music theory, music history and the like other then they have to take these courses, and many of them don’t have a clue as to the difference between beethoven and bartok musically). </p>
<p>Interesting sidelight, there was a recent article in the NY Times about a rapidly growing Presbyterian church (an evangelical church I believe) that is growing to be a mega church, and the church is attracting a large group of young Asian professionals in disproportionate numbers. According to the article, what is attracting them is that the leader of the church stresses that there is more to life then financial success or achieving, that life is a lot more then that, and it apparently it resonates with young people who have been told their whole life that that is basically all there is, which I think is an interesting commentary from the other side of things.</p>
<p>Me, I kind of take the pragmatic approach to things, while I find the Asian approach to things in many ways admirable, I know for a fact that many Asian parents sacrifice for their kids in ways that many western parents wouldn’t think of, I have seen this up close and personal, and they unlike far too many parents care about what their kids are doing and actively support them, I also think there are downsides to this approach, even given the ‘great results’. The USSR turned out per capital more scientists, doctors and engineers then the US did, being a dictatorial society they could force this result easier then a country like the US could, but in the end the USSR in so many ways failed to achieve much compared to the western countries. Creativity and innovation suffer when a kid is told what is important and what isn’t, and it isn’t ‘cultural bias’ to say that someone forced to do things generally does not have the passion for what they are doing. In music, many Asian kids have translated being good in music into winning competitions, for example, rather then finding their own voice in the music, and if they attempt to go into music they often find out this doesn’t work well. </p>
<p>One place where the Jews often differ from the Asians is that the Jewish idea of success, despite the many stereotypes, was not so narrowly defined a lot of the time. Many Jews, spurred on by the teachings of their faith and culture, for example, were driven to achieve in public service, in helping others, many became lawyers, not to become rich, corporate lawyers but because they were taught helping others was a high ideal. Others became writers and musicians because they loved it, or music teachers, because that was part of the culture, too, that achievement meant many different things. Compared to asian culture in my experience, Jews had a love for the arts for themselves, rather then as I often have seen, being a stepping stone to something else…so the drive was tempered, least based on my experience (I use the Jews only because as a group they are often compared to Asians, same holds true for other groups). </p>
<p>I think the discipline and drive that Asian parents instill in their children is valuable, but I also think it probably is better that the child decide more about where to apply that. Playing the piano or violin are wonderful things, of course, but I don’t think using them to get into a high level college teaches a great lesson or is useful, it teaches the idea of doing things only if they benefit yourself directly.I think both worlds have a lot to learn from each other, it is interesting as this woman is promoting this as ‘superior parenting methods’ many Chinese in China are questioning these methods and looking to the west. My argument is that probably the best path is to learn from both approaches and find what works…</p>
<p>I read snippets of the book from the NYT. I’m afraid some people will try to turn her methods into a recipe without understanding the real magic is separating criticism from ego damage.</p>
<p>I just finished reading the book and I really enjoyed it. She turns out to be quite likable. Most of it is about how she parented in the “Chinese Way” but then gets into her doubts and how she changed her parenting style. It’s kind of funny in places to see how her personality conflicts with backing off with the Chinese mothering. I especially liked the part where she was coming up with a plan for her dog’s accomplishments. It’s a very quick read and you can see there’s a lot of love in her family, not just her immediate family but her parents and her sisters. Interesting how different the publicity has been from the actual book. I’m sure she’ll sell a lot of books which I guess was the point. Anyway, it’s kind of a fun read for people who like memoirs but it’s certainly not a how-to-parent book.</p>
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<p>Wow, just wow.</p>
<p>I also found the actual book to be different from the publicity it has provoked (far more nuanced) , and found the author and her family quite likable.</p>
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<p>That is illustrative of another competitive advantage the Chinese have over the U.S. Their socio-economic system does not allow a greed motivated legal structure to dictate societal priorities and practices.</p>
<p>Their socio-economic system is a Communist dictatorship. </p>
<p>Personally, if it were my kid getting on the bus, it wouldn’t be all that much consolation to me to know that the buses were running precisely because I had no recourse in the event my kid was injured or killed in an accident. (I live in a place where it doesn’t snow and the district doesn’t provide buses, so it’s all academic in any case. )</p>
<p>holy wall o text</p>
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<p>What did she expect her dog to be able to do?</p>
<p>The reason school is cancelled when there is significant snowfall is because the road conditions are dangerous!</p>