<p>So if the “perfect” model Asians ran society, then sports would be out the door as would drama and writing to some extent…? I’m totally stereotyping but I gather that math and science are the most important.</p>
<p>hi there,</p>
<p>i was just signing in and wanted to ask, </p>
<p>how do i start a thread?</p>
<p>By the way, i would recommend that article to anyone that can read.</p>
<p>Switz</p>
<p>Go to the forum you want to post in and at the bottom of the list of threads is a button that says “New Thread”.</p>
<p>oldfort, there are some Orthodox and ultra-Orthodox men who do not touch another woman for any reason, including shaking hands (including their wives during certain parts of the month). It’s complicated and controversial, but just wanted to make sure you knew it’s not because he didn’t value you as an employee.</p>
<p>Jewish parents here, though I grew up Catholic. Tried not to use carrots and sticks, but to instill intrinsic motivation. But yes, I’d be around and visible (and on occasion, would nag) when they were doing HW, more because of ADD issues than to make sure they got As. (Both had healthy helpings of Bs. So call me a failure already.) We encouraged sleepovers, though both kids had friends who were not allowed. Did not push sports or music, but waited til they expressed an interest. My kids were definitely more academically intense than all but a couple kids in the neighborhood, but it was a choice they made. S2 had his choice of four HS programs (three magnets plus regular HS) and he chose one of the magnets.</p>
<p>I have a picky eater and would NEVER force him to try something against his will. Will admit to giving him good-natured grief and well-intentioned concern about his limited diet, but humiliation? Not a chance.</p>
<p>I just read the excerpt on WSJ. While reading, I wasn’t sure if it was supposed to be satire of some sort. I thought she was sarcastic at times, then realized she was serious. I went “No way. She’s kidding…”, then “well, maybe not…”. I don’t get it. It’s like she’s publishing some scandals in her family to make some bucks.</p>
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<p>Did Chua ever say “traditional”? I see no indication that she thinks we should all go back to 19th century China–what she’s advocating is an extreme form of a relatively modern (Asian) parenting ethos. It has its roots in ancient ideas, yes, but it comes out of the model minority era, post-1965 immigration, etc. Get the right grades, do the right activities, get into the right college and the right job, because that’s the proven path to success. And everything you’ve written up there–okay, maybe not marrying a white man–is absolutely in line with that ethos. I don’t find it surprising at all that someone who preaches the value of the “Chinese” approach would be a law professor.</p>
<p>I’m trying to finger the difference between Chua and her ilk and the bog-average Asian Parent (capital P intentional), and I think it’s more attitude than openmindedness. My parents, more Americanized than most, retain a lot of narrow, stereotypically Asian ideas about what constitutes success–the prestigious school, the Three (or Four, or in my mother’s case Five) Acceptable Professions. They have irritatingly high standards: in my house, a 3.25 GPA is a minor catastrophe. But they never tried to shame me into conforming with those expectations, because their vision of my path to success was never an end in itself. Rather, they wanted me to be happy, and happiness to them is the stable and prestigious job that pays a comfortable living. If they ever failed, it was a failure of understanding, not of love, and I think that’s a very human flaw, to not see that what you would want is not necessarily what your child wants. It’s not specific to any culture.</p>
<p>Her parenting isn’t really modern with the possible exception that she is educating her daughters (which if you want to be really, really, really old schools wasn’t common long ago in China). However, many of her parenting methods especially the idea of total obedience is part of confucism which is not part of modern Chinese parenting. Its still very, very influential (along with other Chinese philosophies) but its importance has waned due to communism, western integration, and modernization. Also, she is so wishy-washy in her article that its hard to tell what her position on much of anything (except her kids discipline) is. She says that her parenting is rooted in Chinese values, than she says its her style of parenting, but influenced by Chinese values, then she says something different and so forth.</p>
<p>However, I think analyzing the book is beyond the point. No one with her education level and the fact that she has no parenting expertise (outside of her own) would write a book like this for any reason besides money (which judging by the publicity on CC, the $$ is probably flowing in) :)</p>
<p>I didn’t say modern, I said relatively modern. There’s a difference. I don’t think she’s coming from a modern place, or a traditional place. She’s coming from a Chinese place. The Confucian ideal of obedience to parental authority is, as you say, Chinese. The idea that children have a filial duty to their parents is Chinese. The model minority mold she’s shoving her children into is also Chinese–it dates to much later than Confucianism, which is why I said relatively modern. This combination of the old and the newer is common to Chinese parents, although not many of them take it nearly as far.</p>
<p>You said you thought Chau’s life contradicted her championing of “Chinese parenting,” and I’m saying I don’t see that. She’s a successful law professor; she epitomizes that model minority mold.</p>
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<p>This is exactly what the Asian parents believe in. In hard science and math, engineering, there is mostly a meritocracy, results and achievement are more objective than art, literature, writing etc. If you are good at what you are doing and can produce results, there is always a job waiting for you. You are not subjecting to the whims and “holistic” judgments of your superiors. You can be yourself, and just because you don’t conform to society’s norm (white people’s criteria in the US), those are not barriers to having a job. Promotion is another issues. Therefore, most Chinese congregate to these professions, just like jews used to. Asians throughout history have been entrepreneurs, they are the small business owners, shopkeepers, so in these professions, one can start your own company and doesn’t have to be employed by others. Just look at Silicon valley, Yahoo, Youtube, Nvidia, Linksys and Netgear, Kingston Technology among the few.</p>
<p>I find it extremely offensive that Jewish posters can even say that the reason Jews are successful and overrepresented in Ivies and professions such as medicine, law, accounting is that they are intellectual and have a love of education whereas Asians are being pushed and hounded by their parents. When an Asian student posted that she is happy her parents pushed her in music because now she really likes it, and then one poster has to second guess her and insists that she was pushed and really doesn’t like it. This is blatant discrimination when one casts your own ethnic group in a higher esteem and imposes your negative stereotypes on another.</p>
<p>I agree with another poster saying that many believe jews are into money and much more but I won’t push a negative stereotype here now. Unlike other posters.</p>
<p>What is truly tragic is that her kids are probably competent at instruments but will eventually encounter natural proteges who practiced only a fraction of the time yet play way better.</p>
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<p>Her kids are more than “competent.” Really, they’re likely better in their instruments than 99% of the piano players and violin players in the country. So who cares if they aren’t the greatest?</p>
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<p>Out of curiosity, do you think that any social prejudice against Chinese people in the workforce in this country as of today (the year 2011) is comparable to social prejudice against Jewish people in this country in the early / mid part of the 20th century? (To be clear, I’m talking the US. I don’t want to get into a Holocaust discussion.)</p>
<p>all this talk of why one group or another does well makes me uncomfortable. WRT to Jews (I am Jewish)</p>
<p>A. NOT all Jews are successful financially. Not all Jews are successful academically. No REAL statistician drowned in a river with an average depth of two feet, but a lot of non-statisticians need to be careful when they go wading in statistical waters</p>
<p>B. Those WHO do succeed do so for DIFFERENT reasons. Some are truely gifted. Some are self motivated. Some were pushed. A few were lucky - even Jews can get lucky once in a while.</p>
<p>C. Even when we are successful due to things that we can be proud of, politeness and prudence suggest not boasting about it. </p>
<p>I would hate for some Jewish person to publish a book like this and promote it so prominently. I assume Chinese-American people, as a whole, are mostly uncomfortable with Chua’s book. If they are, I deeply empathize.</p>
<p>"Her kids are more than “competent.” Really, they’re likely better in their instruments than 99% of the piano players and violin players in the country. So who cares if they aren’t the greatest? "</p>
<p>If they are intending piano or violin as careers, it would matter. If they are doing it for personal enrichment - well I would have to seriously question the cost benefit in terms of personal enrichment A. having the parent determine exactly what area of activity they should find personal enrichment in, and B. Sacrificing so much of their childhood to get it</p>
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<p>What do you think the posters are saying here for Asian parenting?
What is not acceptable for Jews is acceptable for Asians?
As for capitalizing jews, I am merely following another Jewish parent’s comments. See Brooklynborndad’s comment #293.</p>
<p>What is totally acceptable to say negative stereotypes for Asians here are not acceptable for another ethnic group? I ask you. I don’t see your comments refuting any other posters. Hypocritical?</p>
<p>I am just sloppy when posting to message boards, sorry if I erred on Chinese. </p>
<p>I hope you are not citing me for stereotyping. As I think I already mentioned, and I would like to again clarify, I was mocking Chua. I do NOT think her claim of what is “chinese parenting” is universal, even among 1st gen immigrants, and I think overall she is irresponsibly spreading a dangerous stereotype.</p>
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<p>Please, this sentence already boasting. I know for a fact there are lots of boastings among the Jews, trying to outdo each other as in lavish Bar Mitzvahs and weddings; “my son the doctor, my son the lawyer, my son the banker.”</p>
<p>I play mahjongg, I know. ;)</p>
<p>As I’ve pointed out 20 pages ago, racism is alive and well in society, Pizzagirl. Just read this thread. There are more barriers for Asians in the workplace now than for Jews last century because many Jews were able to change their last names to hide their identity. Asians obviously cannot be mistaken for white.</p>
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<p>It’s called “praeteritio” - an old Roman rhetorical device where you mention something by saying you won’t mention it.</p>
<p>Politicians use it sometimes: “I wouldn’t dream of mentioning that my opponent is a wife beater. And you’ll never hear a word out of me about his drinking problem or lengthy criminal record…”</p>
<p>"What is truly tragic is that her kids are probably competent at instruments but will eventually encounter natural proteges who practiced only a fraction of the time yet play way better. "</p>
<p>The answer to that is not really. Many of the ‘prodigies’ you see are not natural prodigies, where they pick up an instrument and fly with it without much effort, most of them are kids who were pushed at a very early age to play advanced repertoire and they are generally exhibited like a circus act. There are all kinds of theories about prodigies, but what is common is they are able to learn the music easily but it is not standard musical training, my personal belief is they are tapping into the same mechanism that allows kids to learn speech easily…but whatever. "prodigies’ flourish on being very young and playing complicated pieces seemingly effortlessly, but as they age a couple of things happen. Yes, they can play difficult pieces long before standard students do, but that is because most music teachers refuse the circus trick approach and insist on them learning it the ‘old fashioned way’ rather then by rushing to make a name for themselves and their students as young kids. </p>
<p>1)When they get to be teenagers, the ability to horse through on some sort of instinct fades (one of the reasons I think it is the same as learning language is that in general, according to Bronowski,this happens around 13 which from experience is when most prodigies “lose it”. </p>
<p>2)When the crash happens, because in effect their teachers have ‘cheated’, they haven’t learned the music the way others do, which involves learning the basics, doing scales, working their way up and they find they cannot pick up the pieces. As a result, they either are stuck where they were and the kids who did it the ‘old fashioned way’ continue improving, or they drop it. </p>
<p>If you don’t believe it, read up on Yehudi Menuhin and Janos Starker and even Itzak Perlman…he basically spent his teenage years learning technique he had never learned, Starker retaught himself to play when he realized he didn’t know why he could play like he could at the age of 19 (turned it into a book on cello teaching that is still used), Menuhin crashed when he was in his 20’s and never fully regained his old abilities. </p>
<p>The other problem with prodigies is their charm was because they were this little kid playing the violin, and the sad part is as they get older you see their parents continuing to dress them as little kids (especially the girls), when they are well into their teens, in the hope of keeping people interested in them. </p>
<p>Some prodigies have made it, Midori was one for example, Sarah Chang was in top form at a young age, but both of them also had struggles when they hit their teens, they had to relearn.</p>
<p>In other words, as Malcolm Gladwell pointed out in outliers, natural talent is not enough and learning it the right way trumps all, as well as work.</p>
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<p>Ummm…is this a public company? If so…I wouldn’t go around talking about it !!!</p>