<p>Thinking of the novel A Clockwork Orange, I am chuckling over the thought that love of classical music is indicative of virtue and model behavior.</p>
<p>There is a general prejudice that learning learning classical music makes you superior. I have nothing against classical music-- I merely consider it the equal of any other kind of music. Just because it was composed a long time ago doesn’t make it better. People perceive it as good because wealthy and powerful people have traditionally championed it. “Classical” is relative. It is ironic that “Chinese mothers” are not teaching their children classical Chinese music (instead they make their children learn music commissioned by 18th century absolute monarchs in Europe!)</p>
<p>It is a racist fallacy to believe that that “Chinese parenting” is superior in any way. There has been a lot of attention in recent years centering on stereotype threat and African American students in USA, and little attention towards the same phenomenon leading to higher Asian SAT scores. While no one is still publicly arguing Hispanics and Afro-Americans are inferior, the belief that Asians are innately superior is publicly discussed in the media. Why?</p>
<p>I don’t want to come off as a flaming radical… it is valuable to teach classical music and a lot of children may benefit from more disciplined parents. I am just tired of stereotypes being proclaimed as facts</p>
<p>“Yes, there really IS a difference between the most recent Harlequin Romance and Madame Bovary.”</p>
<p>But surely you can see that choosing one or two instruments, and one particular genre of classical music, as superior to the others, in spite of the lack of scientific (or any other) evidence to the contrary, is irrational and not at all indicative of understanding the greatness of the period that did lead to classical music? I’m tempted to check out any one of her other books to see if it’s this narrow-minded.</p>
<p>Truly cultured people can appreciate the violin, certainly. But they can also appreciate the virtuosity required to play the flute, to play a difficult jazz composition (difficult jazz? Qu’est-ce que c’est que ca?!? Impossible!), and to truly pay attention and meditate to a particular mass.</p>
<p>Let me guess–it had to be Chinese, Latin and French, but horror of horrors if the second two were Arabic and Russian, regardless of how difficult and necessary those languages are, because she apparently only looks at what is held up by popular media as “cultured”, rather than forming her own intelligent opinions on it</p>
<p>The GFG, I don’t think merely enjoying a particular genre of music (which he chose to make the book less period-specific) is the same as insisting someone master it.</p>
<p>“there’s a difference between Beethoven and rap.”</p>
<p>Yes, because Beethoven is an individual composer, rated by most who have listened to any kind of a wide range of music, as one of the greatest of all time, and rap is a relatively new genre. You’re comparing apples and citrus fruits here. I’m sure there are classical composers that are as mediocre as Snoop Dog, but I have read renaissance and Elizabethan poetry that doesn’t hold a candle to Eminem.</p>
<p>“Not just any activity, like “crafts”, which can lead nowhere - or even worse, playing the drums, which leads to drugs”</p>
<p>What she means is, “lead nowhere in my social circle, which has a narrow vision of what is acceptable”.</p>
<p>M.I.A. is Asian and she’s a rapper/artist and she’s awesome. I’m sure Ms. Chua doesn’t approve but I’ve spent more on M.I.A. than I have on Ms. Chua’s books, even though I love both rap and history. So there.</p>
<p>MIA is unlistenable garbage</p>
<p>anyways, if a kid is playing an instrument still by high school age, the kid is most definitely playing it by choice
ive never heard of anyone in high school youth orchestra there because their parents wanted them to be there</p>
<p>By the way, thanks for the link to that article. It’s been billed as a parenting book, but I do enjoy memoirs. Maybe I will check it out.</p>
<p>(And there’s no “rant” about Sarah Palin at the end–just his preference for Chua’s personal style over Palin’s. It’s literally one sentence. So don’t let that turn you off from the article, which is nicely done.)</p>
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<p>Choice is a tricky concept. Ideally, in this context, you’d want it to mean “they are there because they really enjoy orchestra, it fulfills them, its fun…” but sadly, youth in orchestra might not reflect parents ‘forcing their kids’ but it could mean things like: “well my parents would be disappointed if I quit now, they’ve invested so much in me” or “well I’ve played this long and I don’t know what else to do…” or “I read on CC that you should show depth and passion, and do so by sticking with something…” Ugh.</p>
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<p>Introducing them to classical music is one thing. Forcing them to learn to play classical musical instruments to the point of torture…especially when the choice of instruments was forced on them by the parents is another. </p>
<p>The latter was a big reason why many high school classmates not only abandoned the classical musical instrument forced on them by their parents, but also developed a strong antipathy to classical music. </p>
<p>If your purpose is to encourage love for a hobby/pleasure, forcing it down the proverbial throats of young children like what seems to be done by Chua and to my high school classmates is one of the worst ways to go about it. </p>
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<p>That wasn’t the case with my older cousins nor my high school classmates. They played till the end of high school because their parents forced them to do it. </p>
<p>Saw it firsthand and heard endless bemoaning rants about how they are forced to do something they weren’t interested in/actually hated.</p>
<p>I’m finishing off the book now. This line I just read struck me as the underlying core of her problem:</p>
<p>“Sophia’s success energized me, filled me with new dreams.”</p>
<p>All parents have dreams for their kid- happiness, health, etc- and enjoy the feeling of pride. </p>
<p>But driving their childhood to fulfill your adult specific dreams, to give you a personal thrill, seems so very wrong.</p>
<p>I have no idea what the discussion up until this point has been about; I’m only commenting on rigid Asian child-raising practices, and the idea that “Chinese mothers are superior.” </p>
<p>As some background, I’m a Chinese girl, currently a HS senior. Undoubtedly, I’ve benefited from traditional Chinese strictness–or at least, I’ve benefited on paper. In terms of pure stats and chances of entering a good college, I can’t deny that it was far-sighted of my parents to start me on SAT prep in 4th grade, convenient that they bought me canonical Western literature and expected me to read it before middle school, etc. </p>
<p>Their system, unfortunately, functions almost entirely on extrinsic motivation. Sure, students brought up with such a system “excel” more often than those not brought up in similar circumstances. But take away the carrot and the stick…and there’s very little internal drive for success. On the other hand, the kids without helicopter parents who nevertheless succeed, are ultimately more persistent and determined because they’ve had to motivate themselves their entire lives. </p>
<p>What worries me most about the system is its tendency to, ironically, produce smart kids who can’t think for themselves. Give them Shakespeare, and they can churn out a research paper in no time at all. Ask them what they want to do with their lives…and the tendency is to just parrot their parents. </p>
<p>Or at least, that’s the way it is in my family: "unconventional’ or “unstable” or simply “un-lucrative” jobs are heavily frowned upon. Since I can remember, the only “viable” careers, in my family’s eyes, were becoming an investment banker, doctor/surgeon, or lawyer. I was told point blank that the Peace Corps and humanitarian service are <em>not</em> options, and my sister–who loves art and graphic design–was pushed toward financial and consulting firms.</p>
<p>I guess I probably sound bitter; it’s because I am. My point, though, is that the system promotes tunnel vision. Kids start forgetting what opportunities are really out there; they’re afraid to pursue or never even realize what destinations would actually make them happy. At that point…well then, what sort of “success” is the system?</p>
<p>*Quick note: my parents are actually pretty lenient, all things considered. I’ve seen much, much, much worse among my Asian friends’ families.</p>
<p>Thank god my Asian parents aren’t like that. I turned out well.</p>
<p>“Since I can remember, the only “viable” careers, in my family’s eyes, were becoming an investment banker, doctor/surgeon, or lawyer. I was told point blank that the Peace Corps and humanitarian service are <em>not</em> options”</p>
<p>You’re in high school?</p>
<p>Don’t be bitter.</p>
<p>You don’t need your parents after this–you can work your way through school and do whatever you want. Lots of people do. We attend great state schools, join the Peace Corps, do humanitarian service, pay off our loans, go back to grad school… all with nothing more than hard work.</p>
<p>And while I, personally, did give up playing the flute (which I was never passionate about, but enjoyed), you don’t have to. You could even take up poetry and spend a year or two in China.</p>
<p>Every parent does their best, but your parents haven’t determined your destiny. Not even close. You have so much of life ahead of you, and you haven’t missed any of it yet!</p>
<p>Got to say, I was appalled after reading the article. I just heard Chua and her husband on NPR. She said a lot of the material re her treatment of her daughter was “tongue in cheek.” She actually sounds like a very nice person, not at all as the excerpts portray her. She will make millions from this book - as Pat Conroy did with the Great Santini.</p>
<p>Everyone who is about to comment should read this:</p>
<p>**People who are taking this book the wrong way (particularly those who read the excerpt in the newspapers and not the book itself) are missing the big picture. The book is a memoir, and Chua tells her story no-holds-barred. Her mother is a central figure and her discipline (right or wrong) has shaped who Chua has become. Like all of us, Chua has had to find the good in her parents, particularly the good in their intentions (even when they aren’t easy to find). Those who are treating this as a parenting manual advocating parents raise their children the way Chua was raised either haven’t read the book or have completely missed the point. **
[Amazon.com:</a> Jared Zyglinsky’s review of Battle Hymn of the Tiger Mother](<a href=“http://www.amazon.com/review/R2BY5YY194P3KV/ref=cm_cr_rdp_perm?ie=UTF8&ASIN=1594202842&nodeID=&tag=&linkCode=]Amazon.com:”>http://www.amazon.com/review/R2BY5YY194P3KV/ref=cm_cr_rdp_perm?ie=UTF8&ASIN=1594202842&nodeID=&tag=&linkCode=)</p>
<p>Maybe I missed it but surprised no ones referred to Retreat of the Tiger Mother interview with Chua in the NYT: Ive been forced to answer questions about a book I didnt write, she said. Its not saying what people should do, its saying, Heres what I did, and boy did I learn a lesson.
<a href=“Amy Chua: Retreat of the ‘Tiger Mother’ - The New York Times”>Amy Chua: Retreat of the ‘Tiger Mother’ - The New York Times;
<p>yeah but
your D didn’t get in Harvard but THEY did/ do/ will do
your D didn’t play at Carnegie but THEY did/ do/ will do
your D wasn’t Marie nor can’t dance principal for NYCB but
ah no, more likely THEY can’t do that either if you got an once of Asian blood
so it’s a little bit of BS, but mostly not so.</p>
<p>From the NYT article:</p>
<p>“That you threw the homemade birthday cards they gave you as 7- and 4-year-olds back in their faces, saying you expected more effort”</p>
<p>I read something like that and can’t comprehend anymore…you just can’t have much of a heart to do that, strict or not.</p>
<p>@Polyglot, post #534, I didn’t think that Chua was writing a parenting manual. However, I have to say that I find her methods deeply repugnant, and I think there are others on this thread who share that feeling. The methods don’t strike me merely as intense, or as requiring a lot of parental time or even just an inappropriate level of control, they strike me as genuinely awful. I am steeped in Western culture, of course, but part of Western culture is the belief that there are universal human rights. I also ascribe to some universal standards of right and wrong, and do not accept practices simply because they are part of other cultures (foot binding, suttee). (Addendum: I am not equating Amy Chua’s practices with these things, I hasten to add. But I am not buying the argument that it’s a different culture that I cannot understand and that I am not entitled to criticize, either.) </p>
<p>So, when the book is described as “tongue in cheek” or “having an unreliable narrator,” I am uncertain. Is the revelation that Amy Chua reaches at the end, “Oh my goodness! This was an unjustifiable way to raise children, regardless of the apparent outcome at this stage, and I deeply regret it!” Or was it instead, as it appears to be, a reaction that the best of “Chinese” (apologies for the use of this adjective) parenting should be combined with the best of “Western” parenting?</p>
<p>Certainly, I had a few moments that do not belong in the Annals of Excellent Parenting Practice. However, those moments were not part of an overall parenting strategy, undertaken with forethought and deliberately executed over many years. They were brief and they ran counter to my overall philosophy of child rearing.</p>
<p>The NYT Retreat interview presents a different picture than the author did when I heard her discuss this on NPR. On the radio Chua made it sound like she abandoned the whole thing, but in the NYT article, she only retreated a bit. On the radio, she kept talking about “tongue in cheek” and poking fun at herself. I was think she was being misunderstood. However, now I think she is simply back-pedalling. Without reading the entire book, it is difficult to tell.</p>
<p>Clearly, no form of parenting works for all children. On the one hand we are told we are helicopter parents marching our kids along a “Race to Nowhere”. On the other, we are told that US students are not learning well enough and that even our top students do not measure up to those in other countries. Some kids are naturally driven. For the parents of those that are not, it is very difficult to motivate a child to “do your best” and “try your hardest” without nagging, punishing, or being pushy. I don’t know that we have to push for all As, but not sure we have to accept Bs and Cs (when you know they are capable of more).</p>
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<p>Well mine did. She was innately driven and highly intelligent. I give her all the credit for getting there, while at the same time acknowledging that she came from a family that supported her in a huge, positive way.</p>
<p>Yes, our society is conflicted over how much parental intervention is good and acceptable, and people are quick to judge others who make different choices. We’ve seen many accusations against working parents as being too busy with their own careers to spend enough time guiding their children, and we’ve seen stay-at-home moms and dads being criticized for not having “a life”, helicoptering, and living vicariously through their kids.</p>
<p>In my assessment of the milieu where I live, barring exceptional brilliance in your offspring, high academic achievement requires either a large enough parental income to pay for all the extras like tutoring and enrichment classes, or a parent who is able and willing to be home enough and available enough to spend countless hours helping the child with his studies. </p>
<p>Regardless of our supposed mediocre academic standing in the world, I think quite a lot is still expected of our youngsters. I regularly hear parents lament the fact that kids used to go to school to learn how to read and write. Now, in September of kindergarten year they are having to write paragraphs already. Yes, I know a lot of kids go to nursery schoold where much is learned in advance and there are reasons for this change. Still, there’s a 10 year gap between my oldest and youngest. The youngest is having to master some skills and knowledge sets on an average of 2 years earlier than my oldest did. Again, if you have a brilliant child, there’s no problem. If not, more help is needed than in the past. A month ago my 6th grade D brought home some vocab words that I had never seen before in my life, and we’re a pretty literate household.</p>