<p>^I appreciate your reminder of this. It must be frustrating to read too, since she obviously can’t represent such a large culture! </p>
<p>From my experience- where we live, the almost majority are recent immigrants from HK- a subset of parents I know would abide by the same rules above. Well the list would be no playdates, sleepovers, visiting classmates homes except for homework projects, and extracurriculars are limited to tutoring, classes in math, chess, and chinese, and particular music or dance lessons. But I also know of a ton of exceptions too (and more importantly, I would not at all imagine any of their homes are abusive or demoralizing as Amy’s seems to be).</p>
<p>Ding! I think Hanna wins. I too think that this is a cold and calculated attempt to make $. Ca-ching! I’ll read the book by borrowing it from the library. I suggest the rest of you do the same.</p>
<p>I’ve known a lot of “over the top” Asian parents back in the day. My offspring went to a NYC public magnet and had lots of Asian classmates. One of my kid’s nicest classmates did a class project with my kid . They lived a substantial distance from each other and my kid’s friend suggested staying overnight to do it. The classmate’s parents went beserk. The classmate tried to argue. Finally, out of sheer desperation she said in an Asian language the equivalent of “Are you kidding me?!!! [My kid] is on the [regional] math team!!!” Classmate’s parents then agreed to allow the sleepover. What makes this hilarious is that it was a project for social studies class. They assumed that a white kid on the MATH team couldn’t be THAT bad an influence.</p>
<p>Amy’s not an immigrant. She “gets” the fascination and she’s making money from it. Ca-ching! PLEASE, DON’T BUY THE BOOK!!!</p>
<p>Many toxic, control freak parents rationalize their behavior as “love” of their children.
Have you ever seen a parent saying “I am doing these horrible things to my children because I am a saddist and a control freak?”</p>
<p>The fact that they “THOUGHT” they did it out of love does not make it excusable. The damage to the children is no less, and perhaps even worse.</p>
<p>I haven’t read the book (and don’t intend to) – but I see two separate things at work in the discussion. One is strict parenting (no play dates, no overnights, etc.) – the other is verbal & emotional abuse (threats & humiliation).</p>
<p>I’ve got a question for the Asian parents (or children of Asian parents) here - is that typical? or would it be more the norm for traditional, immigrant Chinese parents who impose strict rules and expectations, without the over-the-top threats and humiliation.<br>
“burning all the stuffed animals” </p>
<p>It seems to me that this parent is masking a very abusive parenting style under a label of “Chinese parenting” – but I find it hard to believe that most parents, however pushy or strict, are as callous in what they say to their kids.</p>
<p>How many times on CC have you read some poor kid say, “I just got into [name any excellent university not HYPSM] and my parents weren’t proud of me at all?” How many times on CC have you read some poor kid say, “My parents expect me to get into HYPSM even though I’m not HYPSM material”?</p>
<p>Not impressed. At all. I have no problem saying that just as the sports emphasis at the expense of academics is an unattractive part of mainstream American culture (as hyeonjlee pointed out), I think the exclusive focus on academics is an unattractive part of that culture. And yes, every culture has its unattractive parts.</p>
<p>I think the general “Chinese Mother/Parent” stereotype is rather tired and over-used, and the excerpted parts definitely made me start the article with trepidation. But it was surprisingly good. It isn’t apologetic or defensive and she made some good points against the “nurturing self esteem and individuality” model which tie into Carol Dweck’s work on different types of praise-- being praised for specific accomplishments helps children’s self esteem, being praised for existing/being something hurts it.</p>
<p>Really? This builds confidence and self-assurance? Why is it that the shyest, most non-participatory, most unquestioning and risk adverse students in my class are usually children of Chinese immigrants? </p>
<p>Amy Chua sure has a great PR machine behind her upcoming book. I’m tired of her and it already.</p>
<p>No idea. The most bubbly, confident and wacky people I know are children of Chinese immigrants. Obviously there’s a variety, and when there’s a stereotype out there people are bound to notice the ones that fit into it more. Confirmation bias and all that. Harsh parenting can break some children’s spirits, but you could as easily argue that it would make them rebellious and headstrong (I’ve seen that happen too). It really depends on the type of child you start with.</p>
<p>See, that’s why I’m kind of annoyed at this book-- Amy Chua is clearly a brilliant woman, so she’s got to know that presenting this tale in all its hyperbolic glory is just going to feed into common stereotypes. I’m sure some of this book is true; I’m sure some of it is greatly exaggerated. There are moments of honesty peeking through, but it feels too much like a novel instead of a memoir.</p>
<p>As for the effect of insults, it really depends on the child. Insults just roll off of some children; they’re not good, but they’re more forgivable as occasional slips. They can even occasionally motivate the most headstrong kids to prove the parents wrong, as it was with child!Amy. But if you have a very sensitive, people-pleasing child (the kind of child I was) insults can be devastating, and no slips are acceptable. That’s the biggest problem I have with Amy’s parenting (if it’s described accurately): she doesn’t seem to tailor it to each different child, and assumes that their temperaments are just going to be like hers.</p>
<p>There’s also the stereotype among Asian/Asian-American parents…especially first-generation immigrants that they commonly force their children into pre-professional tracks which seem to be highly remunerative. </p>
<p>A stereotype which does hold true for most of my fellow Asian-American high school classmates and their parents. </p>
<p>However, the stereotypes aren’t always true with all…and may not apply to the same degree depending on the family concerned.</p>
<p>Interestingly enough, my father does fit the stereotype of the “Chinese parent” who got mad…and BOY, WAS HE MAD when he saw my freshman and first-half sophomore year high school grades(Think “Pinto” from Animal House when Dean Wormer read back his Midterm grades). In fact, he blew his top so spectacularly that mom(fits the American-parent stereotype despite also being a Chinese immigrant) readily agreed to sign the report cards.* On the other hand, neither of my parents forced me into a pre-professional major and actually felt parents who did so were doing a disservice to their children in the longer term. </p>
<p>Mom’s side of the family were the exact opposite of my father in that they forced their kids into pre-professional majors like engineering/premed(“smart kids”) or business(“everyone else”) and were disdainful of parents who didn’t do likewise. One of them tried to get me to go on the pre-med track until I asked if they’d be willing to pay for the inevitable malpractice suits which will result. On the other hand, they were IMHO way too lax about grading standards and giving second chances to their kids when they screwed up in college considering they were paying full-freight. I have yet to meet any parent “American”, “Chinese”, or otherwise who would be content for a child to graduate college in 5-6 years with a < 2.4 from a lower-tiered private/OOS public in a non-STEM major like business…especially when they knew that the cause was too much partying/screwing around.</p>
<p>As for the musical instrument business…I’m grateful my parents were too poor to afford lessons as my wealthier relatives hated practicing their musical instruments and with one exception, dropped it the moment they got into college. What’s the point of that?? Plus, if my parents or relatives tried getting me to learn a classical instrument like piano or violin, I’d be much more likely to smash it up rather than learn to play the type of music I felt was “boring old rich people’s music” during my adolescent years. Nowadays…much happier I am choosing to learn to play the electric guitar…much cooler and more importantly…it was of my own complete free volition. </p>
<ul>
<li>I was so angry at my father’s over-the-top outbursts over my HS grades that I refused to show him any subsequent reports even when I improved substantially or my college grades which i rocked. Incidentally, it wasn’t until I was out of college for a few years that he found out and was a bit surprised at how well I did considering he was initially concerned about the school being “too hard” for me.</li>
</ul>
<p>Of course there is variance in any groupings we make of people, and of course there is no doubt some selective perception, but I always find it utterly absurd that we can talk about actual cultural differences <em>so long as they are positive of a minority group</em>– but if we mention cultural differences that do not sound so good of a minority, well it must be chalked up to confirmation bias, stereotyping and racism. </p>
<p>I agree you about the inappropriateness of stereotyping: that is, judging an individual the basis of a group they happen to belong to (i.e. if I were to meet someone who looks like they are of Chinese origin, it would be inappropriate to assume they must play the violin, be good at math, and show a lot of respect for authority). But that is quite apart from noting that <em>on average</em> different cultural groups are quite different. I believe if we were to conduct a more objective test- than my mere perceptions we would find that on average, Chinese students compared to non-Chinese students, work harder at school, prefer Engineering over English, and are also quieter, less likely to participate in class, and come across as less confident than other students.</p>
<p>My Irish immigrant mother has many of these qualities also - that’s why very few of her children speak much with her anymore. We all did very well in school, but the constant criticism was difficult.</p>
<p>“Why is it that the shyest, most non-participatory, most unquestioning and risk adverse students in my class are usually children of Chinese immigrants?”</p>
<p>Phillip Zimbardo did a survey on shyness in the 80’s (perhaps things have changed in China now). He found that shyness wasn’t particularly common in China, but was much more common in Japan. This was attributed to shame being used and an emphasis on not taking personal risks in Japan. China, on the other hand, didn’t individualize failure as much as Japan did.</p>
<p>I’d be pretty concerned if a parent told their child, “Hey fattylose some weight.”</p>
<p>One reader commented on Ms. Chua’s essay by posting a link to a news report about a 17-year old Chinese daughter who snapped and killed her mother:</p>
<p>I live in an area that is about 25% Asian, and more of the Asians are Chinese than of any other heritage.</p>
<p>I don’t think the parents here are quite as strict – in our area, Chinese kids participated in drama, attended and even hosted sleepovers, had “play dates” (although the parents may not have used that term), and even (gasp!) played wind instruments. </p>
<p>But I did notice a cultural difference in parental attitudes, as well as a certain reluctance on the part of some Chinese parents to let their children associate too much with non-Asian children – no matter how academically oriented – on the grounds that their kids might pick up non-Chinese attitudes. </p>
<p>Also, I never understood all the tutoring and summer academic programs for kids who didn’t particularly need these things. After reading this article, I think that maybe now I get it.</p>
On the other hand, they were IMHO way too lax about grading standards and giving second chances to their kids when they screwed up in college considering they were paying full-freight. I have yet to meet any parent “American”, “Chinese”, or otherwise who would be content for a child to graduate college in 5-6 years with a < 2.4 from a lower-tiered private/OOS public in a non-STEM major like business…especially when they knew that the cause was too much partying/screwing around.</p>