Battle Hymn of the Tiger Mother - new book about Chinese parenting

<p>It’s not at all true that “once a child starts to excel at something - whether it’s math, piano, pitching, or ballet - he or she gets praise, admiration, and satisfaction.” Just think of all the prodigies who are tortured into continuing to excel by teachers, coaches, and supposed mentors as well as parents. In the ballet world alone, few teachers offer praise and admiration - it’s an art founded upon a constant stream of negative feedback. “Black Swan” might be a fairy tale (and a bizarre one, at that), but the filmmakers got much of the atmosphere right. </p>

<p>fendrock, that story is heartbreaking! I’m sure it’s rare for a daughter to snap that way, thankfully. I can certainly understand how it happened.</p>

<p>But what’s the end goal? I could have, for example, forced my kids to play violin for hours on end and they would certainly achieve certain levels of proficiency. But why would I have an intrinsic goal of creating a violin virtuoso in the first place?</p>

<p>It’s like when you hear about how Tiger Woods was groomed for golf stardom by his father. What’s so great about that? What’s the intrinsic value in creating a golf superstar?</p>

<p>And these kids wonder why their perfect resumes don’t get them into top schools. American culture rewards passion, not automatons. And Ms Chua produced automatons.</p>

<p>It’s a big world out there, and we’ve always known that each culture approaches child-rearing (and marriage, and religion, and the other Big Aspects of Life) differently. What interests me about this author is that she deliberately chose to raise her children in this mode, despite having been born in Illinois, educated in this country, and having her two daughters with an American husband. I feel it does a disservice to Asian parents everywhere to imply that the over-the-top behavior here is merely business as usual in millions of families.</p>

<p>I asked this on the other thread - if you have to push/mold/force your kids into becoming “successful,” what part of that success belongs to them? The whole thing seems ass-backwards to me.</p>

<p>If Chua’s right, I’m thanking whatever gods may be this morning for my big, sloppy, overly-accepting Eastern European ancestors.</p>

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<p>The American idea is also limiting, in its own way.</p>

<p>In mainstream American culture, if you don’t have a particular interest in history, but you study hard and get As in history and maybe even win a prize in a history essay contest, you are regarded as somehow dishonest. Without the passion, your achievements are suspect. Achievement for achievement’s sake is somehow inferior to achievement motivated by passion.</p>

<p>One of my kids became friends with many Asian students in middle and high school. She liked their attitude that achievement for its own sake – or for what it can get you down the road – was perfectly acceptable, and that passion was optional. For her, this concept was freeing.</p>

<p>I am a first generation Chinese mom, who came to this country as a teen. My parents didn´t allow me to go out because he believed all American teenagers drank and did drugs (a fair generalization? sounds familiar on this board?), and his biggest fear was I would become one of them. This is no different than what many people are posting here - Chinese students are hard working, quiet, lack self-confidence, prefer engineer/math…It could go on and on.</p>

<p>I am a Chinese mom, who take my kids on vacation to only go shopping and sitting by a pool. I never go to museums, H does that. My kids know many foreign city streets by store, restaurant, and hotel locations. They could tell you next season´s color and latest fashion. D1 has said that she is shallow and is quite proud of it. D2 is a bookworm, couldn´t leave the house without few books in her bag (now a Kindle). D1 said that she didn´t remember last time she picked up a book to read for pleasure.</p>

<p>My girls are complete opposite when it comes to academic - D1 more math/science, and D2 more humanities. What they have in common is their drive and work ethic. Both of them played piano growing up, but no endless hours of practice or competition. On the other hand, they always knew their pieces for the recital, unlike so many other white kids (gasp) who often came unprepared (I would have crawled under a table if my kids played like that, have a little bit of pride and just practice a bit before humiliating oneself in front of so many people).</p>

<p>Have I told my kids to lose weight? Yes. When D1 gained 15 lbs freshman year, I said to her that I wasn´t buying her any size 8 clothes. Sounded harsh? It was meant to be because she was gaining the weight by not eating healthy, drinking too much and not exercising. I offered to get her a nutritionist because I wanted her to be healthy. No matter how I said it, it was going to be hurtful to an 18 year old.</p>

<p>As you could see, I am a different mom than heyonjlee, and we are Asians. I happen to think she is probably a pretty good parent based on what she has posted on CC. But it is not my style. Are my kids happy, from time to time hate me, well adjusted, sometimes feel defeated, feel too much pressure, feel very blessed and loved? Yes, to all of that.</p>

<p>Note: my girls are probably more on the “popular” side in high school. They are generally more out spoken and are leaders within their groups. Instead of joining a math club, D1 was the chair for her senior prom. D2 likes debate team in high school, has absolutely no issue in speaking front of strangers. D1 is a great poker player, not as good of a chess player.</p>

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I’m with you on that, starbright. I initially thought I’d probably read it, but now I’m ready to move on. I don’t even want to think about her flacking it on “The View.”</p>

<p>The title of the article is certainly meant to provoke. I was glas to see this was not the title of the book. Now I’ll go read the other thread as I had previously seen the thread title and ignored it.</p>

<p>One of the weirder aspects of this situation is that publishing this book could actually hurt Amy Chua’s academic career. I have known other academics who wrote books on personal topics – and who lost respect from their colleagues because of it. And they weren’t revealing parts of their lives that could prompt people from other cultures to regard them as abusive parents.</p>

<p>This is the bit I have problems with:</p>

<p>“What Chinese parents understand is that nothing is fun until you’re good at it.”</p>

<p>Um…no. I have lots of fun doing things that I am <em>not</em> good at. Bowling…I’m lucky if I score 100 but I like it. Snorkeling…I get a lot of water down the tube but I’m still in the water. Can’t sing…but ‘Separate Ways’ comes on the radio and there seems to be a whale/parakeet hybrid singing along in the car… </p>

<p>If you hate something, you aren’t going to be having fun even if you get good. Tiger Woods was born good and his father worked with him until he became great. But has Tiger ever said he would rather not golf? (okay, we all <em>know</em> what Tiger would rather be doing…) </p>

<p>Wouldn’t the child come to resent the piano and the parent? Esp. when nothing he or she does receives praise or even kindness? Wouldn’t the child start to internalize that <em>he</em> is no good at anything? Once that feeling takes hold, it’s hard to erase. Then the child tries less and gets yelled at more, increasing the downward spiral.</p>

<p>I guess your parenting approach is the product of many factors - your culture, certainly, your individual values, and also what kind of relationship you want to have with your children, including when they’re adults. Perhaps the approach in the book confers some kind of magical understanding and acceptance on the part of the child - “My mother loves me more than anything else in the world, and that’s why she wants me to be the best.” But in my house, my kids would have heard “I’m not good enough for mom to love the person I really am. I’m not going to practice this frigging violin one more minute. I think I’ll find out what that cute guy who makes meth in his basement is up to.” :wink: Well, maybe not quite that … but I don’t know because I didn’t raise my kids to think that they needed to be anything other than who they were for their parents to love them and - here’s the thing - even respect them as individuals. </p>

<p>They’ve turned out pretty well, too. :)</p>

<p>I actually did a little bit of online poking around, and Chua’s kids aren’t kept on all that short a leash. They’re allowed to have Facebook accounts, anyway.</p>

<p>Re-quoting a segment of the article from vicariousparent’s OP:</p>

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<p>I’ve heard this before, and it’s confusing me. What makes the comparison somewhat unconvincing for me is that in many American colleges/universities, and some high schools as well, a B, and certainly an A-, would be worth celebrating if the school were grading on a curve/according to relative performance. Many college-level instructors in the US say that a B grade shows total mastery of the subject matter, and in order to get an A you must go above and beyond the norm. This means that not everyone can get an A, and in fact a B grade may well place a student in the top 30-35% of test-takers, which is nothing to sneeze at.</p>

<p>So does this mean that Chinese schools don’t grade on a curve, so as many people as get a certain score can get an A? So basically they’re all showing total mastery of the material AND taking it a step beyond what the instructor asks for? Or is it just that Chinese schools grade as American ones do, but that who’s getting the A switches back and forth due to parental pressure/study habits/whatever?</p>

<p>I don’t mean this as a critique of the Chinese system or anyone on this thread; I just am trying to get a better understanding of what this particular excerpt means.</p>

<p>My boys attend a hs that has a large Asian population - so I get to witness first hand some of the stereotypical behavior described in the article. One interesting thing I saw - the hs recently screened the movie “Race to Nowhere” - which for those of you not familiar with it is about the stress and pressure put on kids to achieve - get into an elite college, etc. The film goes into depth about the amount of homework given, over-scheduled kids and AP classes. The screening was packed and there was a very emotional discussion afterward by parents who were very moved by the film. But - there were no Asian parents in attendance - and I mean none. The idea that we could be pushing our kids too hard and stressing them out clearly did not interest them.</p>

<p>By the way, Chua is going out on speaking gigs for which she is charging…leading me to believe even more that this is all some ploy to increase sales in a nation fearing that our best days are behind us and we must all adopt ‘Chinese methods’ to stay afloat. (See the thread on those test scores…) I remember the days when we were all supposed to start living the Japanese/European/Soviet/you-name-it way. No doubt when the Aliens get here, there’ll be books on how to raise our kids the Venusian way!</p>

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<p>While that may be what a B or A grade is supposed to mean, grade inflation at some colleges and universities means that a B grade may mean what a C (or even D) grade used to mean. It also means that students at colleges and universities that are not as grade inflated may face disadvantages in applying to graduate or professional school.</p>

<p>Read the Paper by Amy Chua. She is among the league of “extremist parents” in Chinese parents, or other ethnic group of parents, for that matter. </p>

<p>There is another example of that. I am sure you know the famous pianist Lang Lang. (see this link [allDAY</a> - Lang Lang’s Piano](<a href=“http://allday.todayshow.com/_news/2008/08/07/4377904-lang-langs-piano]allDAY”>http://allday.todayshow.com/_news/2008/08/07/4377904-lang-langs-piano)). He was trained by his father, who gave up his own well-paid job to teach his son full time. By the Western standard, Lang Lang had an “hellish” childhood. He even wanted to kill his father at one point. At the end, he became a superstar… Does the end justify the means? Not in my book. However, different people may feel differently. It is an individual decision. As a first generation Chinese immigrant, another point I wish to make here: The phenomenon of hard/harsh parenting is universal. Perhaps, the Chinese practices more on average than other ethnic groups.</p>

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<p>Regardless of the grading method, getting a B or A minus means that you didn’t do as well as you could have. I think this is all that matters to the stereotypical Chinese parent.</p>

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<p>Holding a colored cup (alcohol)? Pole dancing?</p>

<p>Being a Chinese parent myself, speaking of Chinese Parent’s expectations: High expectation came as a result of relatively high-achieving status of the parents themselves. Since 1980’s there were many “cream of the corp” from top Chinese universities came to US for their advanced degrees. They have been having A’s all their lives. It is hard for them to even believe their off-springs are less capable. I am OK with occasional B’s with my kids. However, C’s or D’s are not acceptable even by my standard…</p>

<p>clg210: The article is talking about Chinese kids in American schools. Has nothing to do with Chinese schools. I believe the attitude is that Chinese kids must bring home the A’s. The American kids can have the B’s and C’s and bask in the self-esteem showered on them by their American parents :)</p>

<p>Caveat: I don’t buy that Amy Chua’s parenting style represents “Chinese parenting.” Even so, it’s pretty horrifying that Asian American young women have the highest suicide rate of any group of women in the same age group and I can’t help but make the link from abusive demands and impossible standards to depression and suicide. </p>

<p>[Push</a> to achieve tied to suicide in Asian-American women - CNN](<a href=“http://articles.cnn.com/2007-05-16/health/asian.suicides_1_asian-american-families-asian-women-asian-american-parents?_s=PM:HEALTH]Push”>http://articles.cnn.com/2007-05-16/health/asian.suicides_1_asian-american-families-asian-women-asian-american-parents?_s=PM:HEALTH)</p>

<p>One evening in 1990, Eliza Noh hung up the phone with her sister. Disturbed about the conversation, Noh immediately started writing a letter to her sister, a college student who was often depressed. “I told her I supported her, and I encouraged her,” Noh says.</p>

<p>But her sister never read the letter. By the time it arrived, she’d killed herself.</p>

<p>Moved by that tragedy, Noh has spent much of her professional life studying depression and suicide among Asian-American women. An assistant professor of Asian-American studies at California State University at Fullerton, Noh has read the sobering statistics from the Department of Health and Human Services: Asian-American women ages 15-24 have the highest suicide rate of women in any race or ethnic group in that age group. Suicide is the second-leading cause of death for Asian-American women in that age range.</p>

<p>Depression starts even younger than age 15. Noh says one study has shown that as young as the fifth grade, Asian-American girls have the highest rate of depression so severe they’ve contemplated suicide.</p>

<p>As Noh and others have searched for the reasons, a complex answer has emerged.</p>

<p>First and foremost, they say “model minority” pressure – the pressure some Asian-American families put on children to be high achievers at school and professionally – helps explain the problem.</p>

<p>“In my study, the model minority pressure is a huge factor,” says Noh, who studied 41 Asian-American women who’d attempted or contemplated suicide. “Sometimes it’s very overt – parents say, ‘You must choose this major or this type of job’ or 'You should not bring home As and Bs, only As,” she says. “And girls have to be the perfect mother and daughter and wife as well.”</p>

<p>Family pressure often affects girls more than boys, according to Dr. Dung Ngo, a psychologist at Baylor University in Texas. “When I go talk to high school students and ask them if they experience pressure, the majority who raised their hands were the girls,” he said.</p>

<p>Asian-American parents, he says, are stricter with girls than with boys. “The cultural expectations are that Asian women don’t have that kind of freedom to hang out, to go out with friends, to do the kinds of things most teenagers growing up want to do.”</p>

<p>And in Asian cultures, he added, you don’t question parents. “The line of communication in Asian culture one way. It’s communicated from the parents downward,” he says. “If you can’t express your anger, it turns to helplessness. It turns inward into depression for girls. For boys it’s more likely to turn outwards into rebellious behavior and behavioral problems like drinking and fighting.”</p>

<p>But Noh says pressure from within the family doesn’t completely explain the shocking suicide statistics for young women like her sister.</p>

<p>She says American culture has adopted the myth that Asians are smarter and harder-working than other minorities.</p>

<p>“It’s become a U.S.-based ideology, popular from the 1960s onward, that Asian-Americans are smarter, and should be doing well whether at school or work.”</p>

<p>Noh added that simply being a minority can also lead to depression.</p>

<p>“My sister had a really low self-image. She thought of herself as ugly,” she says. “We grew up in Houston in the '70s and '80s, and at that time in school there were very few Asian faces. The standard of beauty she wanted to emulate was white women.” In college, Noh’s sister had plastic surgery to make her eyes and nose appear more European-looking.</p>

<p>Heredity, Noh says, also plays a role. She says in her study, many of the suicidal women had mothers who were also suicidal. She says perhaps it’s genetic – some biochemical marker handed down from mother to daughter – or perhaps it’s the daughter observing the mother’s behavior. “It makes sense. You model yourself after the parent of the same gender.”</p>

<p>As varied as the causes of depression, Noh says she saw just as many approaches to overcoming it.</p>

<p>While some women in her study did seek help through counseling and prescription drugs, most of her subjects were ambivalent or even negative about counseling. “They felt the counselor couldn’t understand their situation. They said it would have helped if the counselor were another Asian-American woman.”</p>

<p>These women found help through their religious faith, herbs, acupuncture, or becoming involved in groups that help other Asian women.</p>

<p>“It shows the resourcefulness of these women,” she says. “They had really diverse healing strategies.”</p>