Battle Hymn of the Tiger Mother - new book about Chinese parenting

Parents Forum
961

<p>I don’t know how she can brag about results at this point. Her kids are still kids, living at home and completely dependent. When they’re adults, how they choose to relate to her and how they choose how to raise their own children will say more about results than any piano competition will. </p>

<p>I saw the Colbert show from Tuesday night also. He not only grills her in the interview, but spends much of the earlier part of the show thoroughly roasting her. He’s always funny, but this show seemed sharper than usual. You can watch at [Colbert</a> Nation | The Colbert Report | Comedy Central](<a href=“http://www.colbertnation.com%5DColbert”>http://www.colbertnation.com)</p>

962

<p>“she raised two successful children.”</p>

<p>They’re still children! What have they contributed to the world yet? What do they do for others? What will they do when faced with a hit-and-run? What will they do at a party when they think nobody’s watching? Will they be able to juggle a career and a social life? Do they have deep, meaningful friendships or will they ever?</p>

<p>Her youngest is hardly a pupa yet. How can people say her method was “successful”?</p>

<p>Of course, the children aren’t drug-addicted drop-outs, but contrary to popular belief, most children aren’t, especially not children of parents that have money and connections.</p>

963

<p>I am really stunned at the number of people who have difficulty separating the positive work ethic associated with immigrant parenting and the outright abuse Chua describes - most disturbing of all is that Chua herself doesn’t see the difference. I thought an Ivy League education was supposed to cure ignorance, but perhaps a mean streak runs too deep for even the Big Three to unravel.</p>

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<p>Yes, exactly, bchan. No one was saying that it wasn’t good to have high expectations, expect a strong work ethic / giving it your best shot, and that all that mattered was self-esteem. But like I said upthread - a strong work ethic doesn’t need to bleed all the way to “you’ll stay at the piano through dinner, you won’t get so much as a bathroom break and you’ll stay up late until you master this piece, or ELSE.” A strong work ethic and “master this piece NOW or you’re a failure” – for a freakin’ 7 year old! who CARES if she doesn’t master a given piano piece! – are two very different things. </p>

<p>And frankly I’m more impressed by the person who tinkers at the piano and creates his / her own original music than I am the trained seals. I note that “success” for Chua is having her kids play other people’s pieces with high skill, not actually in instilling any creativity or desire to tinker, fool around, interpret a piece differently.</p>

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<p>Serious pianists are trained seals? C’mon. Tell that to Martha Argerich, Glenn Gould, Franz Liszt and all the other “trained seals” who have achieved pretty high acclaim by “playing other people’s pieces.” That’s what concert pianists do; they interpret music they (usually) didn’t compose, and it requires not only technical agility but also great creativity. The idea that there is no creativity involved in playing other people’s pieces is just wrong. Composing – which may start with the “tinkering” you refer to – is a different form of creative endeavor. </p>

<p>I disagree with denying a child play dates and sleepovers, and I think that Chua’s practice of denying her kids bathroom breaks and threatening to destroy beloved toys for failing to master a piece comes dangerously close to child abuse. But serious musicians put in hours and hours of practice. That’s just the way it is. When you have a really, really talented kid – and if you have that kind of kid you know it from an early age – some coaxing and helping to sift through priorities to make time for practice is just part of the equation. The kid should help set the priorities, but he may grumble occasionally. He may even – horrors – have to forego a part in the school play. Again, he should help make the choice. But for the most part parents of truly talented musicians find that the kid is willing to forego certain enjoyable activities to keep up with his instrument. That’s because the instrument is an integral part of who the child is. Again, if you have one of these kids, you know it. You can’t build them, no matter how Draconian your child rearing methods, but you do have a responsibility to guide them.</p>

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<p>There have been many questions and doubts about that famous list of dos and don’ts from Amy Chua. As a Chinese-American with Chinese immigrant parents I hope that I can shed some light on that list as to WHY so many Asians have such a list of rules.</p>

<p>Attend a sleepover: This rule stems from traditional Asian parenting. It’s not about making children’s lives terrible. Sleepovers are very common in western culture but not common at all in Asian culture. The thought is that if you have your own bed, why would you want to sleep in someone else’s? I’ve read that Jewish parents also often have the same line of thought although I’m not 100% sure on that one. </p>

<p>Have a playdate: This one is an exaggeration and Ms. Chua said herself that many things in her book are exaggerated for humor. However, many Asian parents do limit the time that their kids can play because the more time a kid plays, the less he/she studies. Many Asian parents also have limitations as to when their children can play- weekends versus weekdays. </p>

<p>Be in a school play, complain about not being in a school play, choose their own extracurricular activities: Asian parents often direct their kids towards activities that they feel are “worthwhile”. ECs that are worthwhile to Asians include but are not limited to: NHS, tennis, fencing, badminton, FBLA, debate team, Model UN, track, robotics, math team, and any club that’s related to academics. The school play is one that just doesn’t make the cut. Does it seem fair? Probably not to many people. Acting is also something that’s seen as a job that will lead to no future. Does being on stage provide a valuable experience and teach public speaking? Of course it does! However in the eyes of Asian parents so does the debate team.</p>

<p>Watch TV or play computer games: Well, regardless of your background we can all agree that too much TV/games leads to no good. With shows like Jersey Shore, 16 and Pregnant, and the Real Housewives of ----, it’s no surprise that any parent would limit a child’s exposure to American media. IMHO this is probably exaggerated a bit by Ms. Chua. She stated that she wanted her kids to learn Mandarin so her kids probably watched programs in Mandarin. Also, many Asian-American households only have Asian TV channels so Asian kids do watch TV. </p>

<p>Get any grade less than an A, not be the No. 1 student in every subject except gym and drama: Asian parents not only believe but know that their children can be top notch students. Asian parents push their children to get As. Also, there is the belief that western schools are much easier than eastern schools (not including third world countries with little or no schooling). So for immigrants, getting As in the west should be a piece of cake. Of course AP classes aren’t a total breeze but many Asian parents will argue that AP levels in the US are the equivalent to the normal level of study in many Asian schools. </p>

<p>Play any instrument other than the piano or violin, not play the piano or violin: There are studies which show that there is a positive correlation with students in band/orchestra and high GPAs. This is also an EC that Asians find acceptable. Asians also place a high value on the “classical” instruments and it’s just a popular among Asians. Many Asians play piano, violin, viola, cello, etc. Asians emphasize these instruments the way that Americans emphasize sports.</p>

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<p>Acting was also seen as a lowly career ranked alongside prostitution during the Imperial Chinese/Republican Chinese era…especially in rural villages. Actors were on the one hand valued for performances which cleansed the village/region of spiritual pollution. On the other, the actors were seend as being spiritually polluted themselves as a result of their performances. Some things I picked up from learning Chinese history in school and from my own readings. </p>

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<p>As someone who took a debating course in high school and practiced it regularly in front of the class, it is not the same thing as acting/singing or public speaking in front of the audience. </p>

<p>Even as someone who tends to lean more extrovert, I had a hard time with public speaking and it took some work to overcome this issue. Ironically, one thing which enabled me to substitute teach for a grad student friend with some effectiveness was to actually force myself to get on stage to karaoke rock songs in front of dozens of strangers in a NYC bar. </p>

<p>Came in quite handy for the two 1 hour sections when I was covering Roman Imperial history for a Western Civ survey course containing 50-75 students each. </p>

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<p>IME as an ABC, my observation has been this is done to conform to their notions of “upper/upper-middle class Western culture” to ingratiate themselves to their middle/upper-class White suburban neighbors and more established Asian/Chinese immigrants in the same social strata. In short, it is really meant as a tool of social climbing/contestation. </p>

<p>As someone who was snobbed by those types of people, both Asian and non-Asian, it was quite annoying and filled me with a sense of disgust at being kicked down by the very people whom I felt were acting as sycophantic “suck-ups”.</p>

968

<ol>
<li>don’t agree with her method</li>
<li>glad that she changed at the end</li>
<li>sorry to see that she did not once mention encouraging her girls to volunteer and give back to the community. Giving away the stuffed animals to Salvation Army did not count…</li>
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<p>BTW, I am a Chinese Mom too, definitely not a tiger. Chua made me look like an angel</p>

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<p>collegeproject, that last sentence was the best part: “Chua made me look like an angel”.
My teenage daughter read the book on Sunday and said afterward how grateful she is that she lives in our household. THAT lesson was worth the price of the book.</p>

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<p>Amy Chua was asked point blank on the Today Show how much of what she wrote about in her book really happened and she answered all of it. She said her intention was to write with humor but everything she wrote really happened. I saw the interview.</p>

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<p>Amy Chua said in her book that playing drums leads to drugs so in her mind either of her daughters being a drummer in the school band would not have been acceptable.</p>

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<p>I was on the debate team and I was horribly miscast, pardon my pun. It is one of my worst memories from high school. Believe me, the debate team isn’t for everyone. One of my best memories from high school is playing the piano for two school musicals. I don’t know how that fits into your schema because it was playing the piano but within the drama department.</p>

<p>You can’t just take all the possible extra-curricular activities that are available to high school students and categorize them into a group that is acceptable, a group that is not and some are interchangeable. You need to factor in the individual personality of the student involved. I know people who found their outlet in the drama department. I had the privilege of seeing them perform in school plays and thirty years later I can still remember their outstanding performances. I believe that for them being a part of the drama department had a huge positive impact on their life.</p>

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<p>@cobrat- I definitely agree with what you have said. </p>

<p>“Acting was also seen as a lowly career ranked alongside prostitution during the Imperial Chinese/Republican Chinese era…especially in rural villages.”</p>

<p>It’s funny that you mentioned that b/c my dad told me something similar only he was speaking about modern times. I guess that history has led many Chinese to still hold onto the belief that actresses are prostitutes. He told me that girls in acting are “dirt girls” (translated directly from Cantonese) and he meant that they can only get jobs if they give sexual favors. </p>

<p>You’re absolutely right about public speaking being different from debating. Both are skills developed through different means. Maybe some day some overachieving Asian with tiger parents will start a public speaking club =p</p>

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<p>For those who know, what is the goal of Chinese parenting? I understand that they want their kids to get all “As” and play a classical instrument, but what is the ultimate life outcome they are trying to achieve? To be a doctor, engineer or scientist? If so, why is that the goal?</p>

<p>When I was growing up, I remember the ultimate goal of many high achieving kids was to be the President of the United States. Obviously, almost no one achieved it, but it seemed like that goal may have shaped our child-rearing values. The President embodies everything most Americans value in a person: a well-educated, articulate, trust-worthy, outstanding leader, who works tirelessly to improve society as a whole. Do these type of values exist in the traditional Chinese culture?</p>

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<p>@Pea-
I just saw Ms. Chua on the Colbert Report (most of it was humor) but she did admit that her daughters didn’t have play dates from ages 9-13. So they had play dates at certain years and not others. I’m not sure why but it’s not my place to judge since I’ve never met her or been in her home. </p>

<p>You’re right in saying that being a drummer in the band is unacceptable to Asians. I’m not saying that I personally believe that one instrument is better than another. This is just the way that Asians generally think. Those “classical” instruments are a way for Asians to assimilate to upper/upper middle class as cobrat had said. </p>

<p>What I said about ECs is just generally what Asian parents believe. My goal is not to say that westerns are participating in the “wrong” EC. I am only trying to explain a little part of Asian culture. I personally believe that all ECs are great as long as the student is passionate about it and the EC is something positive in the student’s life.</p>

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<p>The ultimate goal is for Asian parents is for their children to have a better life than they did. They also say this repeatedly to their children. </p>

<p>Many immigrant Asians don’t come from a lot of money. Yes, there are a lot of well educated immigrants too. What I mean is, many of the Asian parents today have lived through war, hunger, terrible living conditions, harsh governments, etc. That’s not to say that westerns haven’t gone through the same. So the goal for Asian parents is to give their children the best of everything so that they can have an easier life. Asian parents want their kids to be doctors, lawyers, and engineers (not all but many). These jobs are associated with high salaries and imho, high social status. Social status and “face” is a big deal in the Asian world thus why the push for those jobs.</p>

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<p>Bay,</p>

<p>I can assure you that having compassion and serving the community are definitely part of traditional Chinese Culture.</p>

<p>As a Chinese Mom, I am upset that Chua misled everyone into thinking her own crazy irrational way is the ‘Chinese way’. I asked my 16-year-old son if his teachers/friends questioned him about abuse from us since the book came out. </p>

<p>Yes, I read the book. Checked it out of the library because I refused to support the book sale. I was curious to see how a highly educated Yale law professor can be so extreme and so harsh to her own children. I am afraid that some parents with young children might get inspirations from her thinking her way will produce ‘successful’ children.</p>

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<p>My middle schooler heard about this book in school today. She said it sounded a like like me. That’s because I got angry when she brought home 4 Cs this quarter. I told her she had no idea.</p>

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<p>I wonder what that would mean for the Chua-Rubenfeld children.</p>

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<p>@Queensmom–LOL. Ain’t it the truth.</p>

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<p>I’m pretty sure not…
I’ve never heard of a Jewish kid not being allowed to have a sleepover because Jewish parents don’t see why their kid needs to sleep in another bed.</p>

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<p>The prevalence of summer camp among Jewish kids says it all! The ultimate sleepover … For 6 weeks …</p>