<p>And that’s the big issue people are having with Chua. It’s actually not the substance of instilling excellence, discipline, a strong work ethic, appreciation of cultural and academic achievement, etc. It’s the HOW. Because there are plenty of people who instill in their kids those positive values, but don’t have to yell at them, or call them garbage, or withhold bathroom and food privileges.</p>
<p>Hind sight is 20-20. We could all sit here and think about how we would have handled it (if we had more than few minutes), but sometimes, as humans, stuff just comes out of our mouth.</p>
<p>My sister likes to proclaim herself as the most PC parent, always let her kids make their own decisions. One time in front of her kids and my kids she said, “I can’t wait until they go away to college, so I could be free.” I didn’t think much of it because I understood what she was saying, and I knew she loved her kids. But my kids were horrified. They were certain no good parent could ever feel that way. Mayber her kids felt the same as my kids, and were scarred for life, and she didn’t even know it.</p>
<p>Oldfort–Stuff comes/came out of my mouth, too. But I hope I recognize when I have been unfair or unreasonable. And I 'fess up, whether the person I have injured is my 4-year old child or a coworker.</p>
<p>I don’t believe a lot of people know when they have been unfair or unreasonable. What your idea of “unfair or reasonable” may not be the same as someone else’s. I see that with so many people I deal with everyday.</p>
<p>Remember too…fair is not necessarily equal or the same. What is “fair” for one child or person may not actually be “fair” for another. People say things and do things all the time that are perhaps not perfect. Come on…all of us have done this and we’d be dishonest if we didn’t admit it. BUT the important thing is our overall track record, and how the other person (be it children or other adults) perceives our actions or words.</p>
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<p>According to mainstream US society, the things that Chua says to her kids fall clearly on the wrong side of the line of unfair / unreasonable / mean. Now, she may not care, which is fine, and her prerogative. I would note, however, that if a single minority mother in the 'hood lashed out at her kids like that, parenting classes and / or stress management classes would be suggested.</p>
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<p>Of course. We all make mistakes, we all say things that are hurtful to our kids without meaning to. It happens. But there is a difference between it happens because we’re imperfect human beings, and we go out of our way to make it happen because we believe those hurtful things are the only way to get “acceptable” parenting results. </p>
<p>Chua never says she was wrong for doing / saying those things, or introspects enough to admit that she could have potentially accomplished the same thing in a less harsh fashion. She’s not introspective and there is little epiphany. If her method is black and typical Western parenting is white, she moved off black to a dark, dark charcoal gray that is virtually indistinguishable from black. That’s the conclusion of the reviewers and it’s my conclusion having read the book.</p>
<p>I don’t think I get your point, Oldfort. </p>
<p>If one is not predisposed to accept that he/she can make mistakes, he she will not admit same.</p>
<p>I do not have the impression that Chua thought she had been unfair or unreasonable, even less that she admitted the same to her children.</p>
<p>It is the same that my sister didn’t think what she said could be hurtful to her kids. I didn’t think so, but my kids did because I have always made them believe my world would crash down if they should ever leave me. Now, I could have said a lot of things in front of my niece and nephews which could have been very hurtful, but I wouldn’t know. All I know is my kids feel very loved by us, and my niece and nephews feel very loved by their parents. </p>
<p>At the end of day, we all think we are the best parents, otherwise we have failed at the one single most important job in our life. If anyone should do it differently than us, then they must not be good parents, otherwise it would mean we are not good parents.</p>
<p>She doesn’t, not according to the book. And the proof is that she still thinks it’s about the end goal (=academically perfect children who are music virtuosos) and not the relationships. She backpedals now but she has extraordinarily little to say about the concept that she could have instilled academic excellence without being over-the-top. She doesn’t seem to deal with shades of gray very well in life.</p>
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<p>I’m sorry, I’m not following. Are you saying that in a teasing way, or in a serious way?</p>
<p>No, I am not teasing. My sister, like Chua, didn’t think what she said in front of her kids were hurtful, or she wouldn’t have said it. But in my kids’ eyes, my sister said something horrible - how could my sister be happier without her kids because my kids believed we were only happiest when they were with us (we lied really good). My kids were raised to believe they were the center of our world, right or wrong, so be it. Other parents have said they loved each other more than they loved their kids.</p>
<p>I am not condoning Chua’s behavior because I don’t treat my kids like that, but I am just not so quick to judge.</p>
<p>A parenting philosophy is just that, a philosophy. Most, if not all of us, have failed to completely carry out the parenting plans we devised before having kids. Why? Well, we’re fallable human beings and don’t always follow through on our good intentions. For another, parenting is a relationship, a two-way street. Good parents read their children’s cues and responses, and use that data to assess how a particular strategy is working. We then make changes to our plans.</p>
<p>For example, I had planned to employ the time-out as a discipline tool with my kids. However, it was a complete failure with my first child for a number of reasons. If he was being disobedient enough to need a time-out, he was also unruly enough not to stay quietly in the assigned place for his time out. He would throw objects, kick doors, scream hysterically, hit me, etc. After repeated attempts to try to make this enlightened tactic succeed, I gave up and resorted to the only method that worked with him: unenlightened, good old-fashioned spanking. For my second child, time-outs also were a failure. Spanking didn’t seem to phase her either. Taking away toys and privileges, like having dessert, worked best with her. Then came child #3. Time outs were effective, but too harsh for her and made her too upset. I learned she only needed to be glared at and spoken to in a loud, firm voice.</p>
<p>We have already commented on the fact that Chua was rigid. It seems she failed to notice, or else care, that her second child did not have the same temperament as her first. Notice how she defended the piano episode to her husband by saying that Sophia had been able to play the donkey song at that age. And what on earth did that have to do with Lulu? They were different kids, and her husband told her so. She ignored him and proceeded with the 4 hour ordeal, during which time those teeth marks probably appeared on the piano.</p>
<p>Pizzagirl: I think you’ve got the book all wrong. Chua’s end goal was not at all about having kids who are academically strong and music virtuosos. It is much, much more than that. She says that people in general enjoy doing what they are good at. She wanted her kids to get so good at certain things that they would enjoy them later. It is a very Asian concept to work hard now and reap benefits in the future. There is no room for instant gratification. I definitely don’t agree with all of her parenting methods but no one is perfect. I think that Chua honestly believed that she was doing her kids a service that they would only appreciate much later. Discipline, perseverance, and patience are all virtuous traits and that is what she was teaching them. I was brought up in a very similar fashion and there is nothing but mutual love and respect between my parents and me today. I would do anything for them and they mean the world to me. I brought my kids up in a slightly less severe fashion and we are very close and will hopefully continue to be this way.</p>
<p>Dandemom, Agreed. Statistically speaking, a spoiled brat will less likely to care about anyone else but himself/herself. Parents will be appreciated when kids become parents themselves. Obviousely, there is a line between abuse and strict parenting. Different people have different perspectives. However, with very few exceptions, parents love their kids. I would not have become what I am today had it not for spankings I got when I was a very bad kid years ago…</p>
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<p>Dude, that’s part of time-out. If they weren’t freaking out, it wouldn’t be working, LOL!</p>
<p>They throw it, they lose it. I tell you, it keeps the clutter down…</p>
<p>How about if we compare two extreme parenting, overlty strict and overly permissive? For an average kid, which would fare better?</p>
<p>Chua wrote a book. She wanted to create a scene and sell books and she has done so. I personally would not walk across the street to buy her book. BUT that is my opinion. I’m also quite sure that there are kind moments to her parenting as well…but those would NOT have created the same scene OR sold books. EVERY parent has a soft side too, and I’m sure Chua does as well…but not something that would sell books the way this controversial one is.</p>
<p>Speaking about people enjoy what they are good at…</p>
<p>D2 has been dancing since age 3. She studied with the same teacher for over 10 years, even though she was very strict, she also had more of the American’s warm fuzzy feeling. </p>
<p>This year we moved to a new country, and D2 was auditioned into a very good local studio. This studio only employed Russian ballet teachers. D2’s new teacher’s method of teaching was to give corrections for 4 hours straight, and D2 got most of the corrections. D2 often came home in tears, I wanted her to quit or find a new studio.</p>
<p>Last month as they were selecting dancers for their upcoming recital, D2 was selected for 2 solos and andother group dance, more than other dancers. All of a sudden, D2 has a brand new attitude about ballet and her teacher. She now feels she is one of better dancers in class, and no longer dreading about going to class everyday. In D2’s case, she was the one who stuck it out until it got better, but she was also 17 and had 10+ years of dance experience (she is a tough cookie too).</p>
<p>What Chua has done with this book is the following:
She has stimulated people to talk about parenting!
This is a good thing. Parenting is something that learn from the way that we were parented for the most part. Some of us have made a deliberate effort to do some things differently from our own parents, and it takes a tremendous amount of effort to do this. I think that everyone here is doing the best job that they can, and is doing what he or she thinks is right. But, there is not one person here who can honestly say that he or she never made a mistake. That said, we all have defense mechanisms in place that we use to believe that, overall, we are doing a good job. If we did not have this, we would totally break down.
I believe that Chua did backtrack from her original plan and does admit some of her mistakes. But, like all of us, she needs to believe in herself overall, and justify her actions by their outcomes.
She is a law professor, after all, and her book is a bit of the Socratic method because it has us talking! Personally, I would like to thank her for accelerating this national conversation.
All authors hope to sell books and make money. Most of us work to make money too. Most of us would jump at the chance to make more money if we could. I do not fault her for this.
Do I disagree with a lot of her methods? Of course! Do I see far worse going on in my work in medically underserved communities? Absolutely! But, being too judgemental without appreciation for cultural context gets us nowhere.
When you think of the responsibility that we have to bring up the next generation, it is truly mind-boggling!</p>
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Can’t we just say that’s a human concept instead? I can tell you from experience that it’s an Eastern European immigrant concept. It may be the root belief behind Chua’s approach to raising her kids. But there are many ways to instill the concept of delayed gratification in children - it doesn’t require denying bathroom breaks and calling a child’s hand-made card garbage. </p>
<p>(Just wondering why my comparatively slacker kids always labored over the cards they made for me? Or were my standards too low? I actually pulled the box out and looked through it and can’t imagine rejecting one of them. And I’ve had my own bad moments as a Mom.)</p>