Battle Hymn of the Tiger Mother - new book about Chinese parenting

Parents Forum
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<p>Have you ever heard of unschooling? My son was miserable in sixth grade mainly due to bullying. We pulled him out for seventh and eighth grade and basically let him guide his own learning. He tested out of every high school class it was possible to test out of. We continued with a very loose overview of his high school years, pouring on the praise for best effort and supporting his interests. So where did our unguided son wind up? What was the consequence of a mother who did not shed a single tear, even when he got a “C” once in high school?</p>

<p>He scored in the top 1/3 of the top 1 percent for his SAT and ACT. </p>

<p>I think what had been holding him back (in addition to the bullying) was the relentless pressure to succeed. With a little breathing room, he was able to come up with his own reasons why he wanted to learn X or Y. </p>

<p>We’re born natural learners and I would submit that we crush a lot of that instinct out of young children then spend the rest of their academic lives wondering why they are so darn hard to motivate. What if we backed off and let them find their own motivation? What if we stopped being so afraid that teenagers are wild beasts who will only dumb themselves down if we stop pushing them so hard?</p>

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<p>Define success. If I believed that I had to “succeed” at everything I like to do, I’d have to drop half of it in order to get better at the other half. I like knitting hats and scarfs, that I cannot knit a sweater is of no consequence to me. I stick to the bunny slopes when skiing. The one area of recreation I would say I have had success in is sailing and even in that I am worse at it than most of the people I race with (former Olympians, Americas Cup vets, college sailors, etc.) But I still love it because if I am enjoying it in the moment, that’s success to me.</p>

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<p>Yes! And, as we all know here, the sky high SAT’s, GPA’s and so on are only currency to buy the lottery ticket of getting into the top 20 colleges. </p>

<p>I’m proud of my son that he applied to Yale and Brown, even though he was not accepted at either. Taking a chance at being rejected is a critical skill for an adult to learn. We made a lot of mistakes as parents but one thing we did right was preparing him for possible rejection and celebrating the fact that he had taken the chance. I didn’t want him to leave home with a fear of failing limiting his choices or believing that the only way to succeed is to get what you want.</p>

<p>If taking the chance, if taking the journey, is a success in it’s own right, the world suddenly becomes a lot bigger.</p>

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<p>The definition of success in the culture we’re talking about just seems so narrow. Graduation from only a select group of acceptable schools. Employment in only a handful of fields. Income above $xx. Those things are all great, but they aren’t the only definition of success. I have friends with elite fancy-schmancy degrees who own yoga studios, work for the Park Service (making very little money), who do all kinds of things that are outside of that little box. Who’s to say they aren’t successful too?</p>

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<p>Pugmadkate - as you know, my kids each were fortunate enough to get into top schools (even by CC standards! LOL) this past year. Their grades were in the ballpark, but they weren’t straight A students. Their ACT’s were in the ballpark, but they didn’t have 35’s or 36’s. Nor did they have a list of “prestigious” awards – in fact, I don’t think either of them won any award. Neither plays an instrument; D did play a sport but was average in her sport, certainly not recruitable. But they each had an outside activity that interested them. And they weren’t obvious impress-the-adcom types of activities (like starting charities to help starving orphans in Zimbabwe). And their interest in those activities came through with sincerity and earnestness in their essays and personal statements. I absolutely know that “perfect” 2400 / 4.0 / math-competition-winning students got turned down from these same schools.</p>

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<p>Here’s one Asian-American who plays electric guitar well-enough to scare away some local wildlife. And all I was playing was Buddy Holly’s Peggy Sue using a cheap 15 watt solid-state amp and a Telecaster electric guitar (Yes, I know Buddy played a Stratocaster.). :D</p>

<p>Also, I know several Asian-American guitarists personally including some solo Pros…one of whom is a high school classmate from my graduating class.</p>

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<p>I wonder if part of the reason those ‘perfect’ kids get turned down is that ad-coms know that the ones who have been pushed the hardest are most likely to go absolutely wild once Tiger-Momma isn’t around. Like how the kids whose parents were the most ‘all-natural, no-sugar, no-fried’ types would always stuff their faces with goodies and only <em>then</em> mention their parents’ restrictions.</p>

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<p>I don’t. I know that there are more than two billion Chinese around the world and most of the Chinese mothers are struggling to provide basic needs to their children, not violin and piano lessons.</p>

<p>We, American people think we understand other cultures but we actually don’t. We would have won the war in Korea, Vietnam, and in other countries if we understood their cultures.</p>

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<p>While Ms Chua certainly sounds extreme, there have more than enough threads on CC by children complaining about Asian parents along these same lines that you can’t pretend that it’s not some kind of trend, though.</p>

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<p>^ I also believe the majority of people on CC is on the extreme. Myself included.</p>

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<p>While I agree that the culture you describe above is very narrow, it is largely driven by the legacy of the Imperial civil service examination system and its modern respective national counterparts, the national college entrance exams in many Asian countries. </p>

<p>Below is a response I wrote to ghostbuster’s comment to explain the reasoning behind many Asian immigrant parents’ “Ivy/MIT/Caltech/Stanford-or-bust” mentality even while disagreeing with that mentality. This was not only based on my own observations as an Asian-American kid with a father who fitted some aspects of the “stereotypical Asian parent”* being around many kids with such types of parents, but also from making connections from my academic study in Chinese history and politics during my undergraduate years onwards</p>

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<li>Fortunately, he wasn’t as extremely Ivy/MIT/Caltech/Stanford or bust as I thought. Turns out he knew a lot more about US LACs than he initially let on.<br></li>
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<p>Quote:
[Originally Posted by ghostbuster
Finally, I wasnt trying to make a racial remark per se, I was remarking based on my observations (and my kids all know a LOT of asians, mostly chinese), that Asians are often obsessed with college rankings and “prestige” and make decisions about schools almost exclusively on that basis. Of course there are plenty of exceptions. I didnt mean to offend you or anyone. My kids know chinese americans who have been berated to the point of abuse by their parents for not getting into an Ivy School and having to settle for Duke and UVa. Its sad actually.]</p>

<p>The reasons for this, especially among recent Asian immigrants is that back in their home countries, not getting into the most highly ranked colleges does mean one’s future career options are permanently closed off. </p>

<p>In Japan, it used to be that if you failed to gain admission not only to the #1 university in the country(UTokyo), but also its most prestigious department(Law), you can forget about attaining any positions in the most prestigious Japanese government ministries or the top positions in the Japanese private sector. In the last few years, this has loosened slightly…so they will now accept graduates from the top 5-6(Tokyo, Kyoto, Waseda, Keio, etc) universities. </p>

<p>Even so, failing to gain admission to any of those targeted schools means those career options/paths are permanently shut with the consequent reduction in future job/career options. And after 1989 when the Economic Bubble burst…not getting into a top university may not only mean being shut out of the most prestigious jobs/careers in government/private sector…but sometimes even getting a decently paid job in some industries because the competition for jobs has gotten quite stiff. </p>

<p>Moreover, there is a strong disdain in Japan towards those who go abroad for their undergrad degrees as the preferred path is topflight Japanese undergrad degree, then topflight US/European graduate degree. Remembered reading in a Japanese newspaper about one guy who failed to land a job in a topflight Japanese corporation because he did his undergrad at Bucknell University. Even taking a Masters from Waseda(#3/4 Japanese university) wasn’t enough. It was only after he entered University of Tokyo as an advanced undergrad student at one prospective employer’s suggestion and he got his Tokyo BA that the same companies suddenly decided to show any interest by extending enticing job offers to him. In short, he went from being a non-entity to being a popular candidate companies were clamoring to hire because of that topflight Japanese undergrad degree. </p>

<p>In China/Taiwan, graduating from schools other than the top (i.e. Tsinghua, etc/Taiwan National University, etc) effectively shuts off options for topflight government/private sector careers for the most part unless one does not only work above-and-beyond extremely hard, but is also quite lucky(i.e. Has powerful friends in extremely high places). </p>

<p>Not only that, but even elected politicians in Taiwan are scrutinized quite harshly about their educational backgrounds (i.e. Most top politicians in Taiwan including the last 3 Presidents have their college degrees from National Taiwan University and…in some cases…graduate degrees from top US universities like Cornell, Berkeley, NYU-Law, and Harvard-Law). </p>

<p>And being a politician in Taiwan is much less exacting than trying to gain a job in the most prestigious government ministries or topflight jobs in topflight corporations. Only exceptions to this rule I know of are those who got their positions through political patronage/nepotism as there is a strong common perception that if one is not a graduate of a top university in Taiwan/US…one is not the most qualified and someone who “doesn’t cut the mustard” intellectually.</p>

<p>Only bright spot in China/Taiwan is that undergrad degree holders from what is perceived as topflight US universities are given the same/similar favorable treatment as those who graduated from topflight domestic universities in terms of hiring and social perceptions. </p>

<p>IME, most Americans who have had little/no exposure to the Asian education systems or the history behind them have no idea just how competitive and how “high-stakes” university admissions in those countries are and more importantly, how the prestige/rank of one’s college/grad degrees not only determines employment options…but also how well/poorly one is treated by society…especially its elites. </p>

<p>While that certainly does not justify the browbeating and more importantly, abusive treatment of children who failed to fulfill their parents’ expectations, I hope the above will provide a glimpse into their thought/reasoning processes based on experiences back in their country of origin.</p>

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<p>just read her article on wall street journal.</p>

<p>i can see where this is coming from. im chinese, and my mom was kind of like this, but not as extreme(ok not even close to this). she was like this for me, but not my brother. you can definitely see the difference academically, so maybe it does work. but then again, i would never treat my own kids like this in the future</p>

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<p>I think there is something cultural related to achievement within a variety of Asian cultures. I see this at my kids’ school, where most of the valedictorians are Vietnamese or Chinese. I admire this, and I think that those of us from other ethnic groups have something to learn. However, I also know that sometimes this push for excellence goes to the extreme. My husband is Asian, born here. He has unhappy memories of being on the receiving end of shaming with regards to academic achievement. He is extremely bright, but could not maintain high grades plus work 30 hours per week during high school, as he was made to do. Feeling his parents’ scorn scarred him to some extent. Maybe we overly emphasize children’s self esteem, but perhaps also other cultures may be too harsh on children. Similarly, both of my ds know students whose parents not only shame, but hit them for A-s. We hear only about the successful Asian students (and there are many). What about those for whom these parenting techniques don’t work? That said, it is understandable that cultures with high-stakes exams would lead to high-stakes parenting. In the international comparisons of student achievement, many of the Asian nations score very well, but so does Finland, a country where there are high-expectations on students and on the educational system, respect for teachers and learning, and an emphasis on books in the home. Despite that, the atmosphere of the schools seems much more relaxed even than here. And, there does not seem to be this hurried, pressured emphasis on high-powered extra curricular activities. I do feel that, as a country, we do need to up the ante on the expectations on our youth. ( I’m not talking about the parents on cc and their kids. I’m talking about the droves of adolescents who are not being helped to begin to plan their future.) Maybe we can come up with something a little more like Finland’s approach?</p>

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<p>Yes, we GET that it is a legacy / byproduct of that system. However, when they get here, don’t they have eyes and ears? Don’t they figure out that here in America, we do things differently, and that while elite schools are great and all, one can be very successful without that imprimatur? Good grief, go to any upper middle class suburb and you’ll see people living very nicely who went to state flagships or second or third tier schools, who got there because they worked hard, or were great salespeople, or whatever. </p>

<p>If I went over to China and thought, “Well, my kid’s charity work / volunteer service /walking the little old lady across the street will get him into the best college, for sure!” I’d be rightly accused of being dumb-- because I failed to look around me and realize – OH, I’M IN A DIFFERENT SYSTEM NOW. These people moved here – again, at great personal cost that I can only imagine – precisely because it WAS a different system! So why are they not taking note of it? Why are they oblivious to what is around them? Why is there no “oh, I see it was this way in China, but it’s a different way here”?</p>

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But CC is an online community that draws a particular audience – those who are academically focused and aspire to attend a top university.</p>

<p>My kids attended public high schools that were not considered tops for academics, so they made friends with non-stereotypical Chinese-American kids. The ones who end up at ordinary schools and go on to attend community colleges or the CSU’s, where their B average from high school will take them. So either their parents weren’t incessantly pushing, or the pushing didn’t take. I think for the most part it’s the former – that is, they had parents who seemed very “normal” to me, and they certainly didn’t complain about being pushed. </p>

<p>I think this is just one cultural stereotype, drawn from what is actually a very narrow segment of Chinese immigrant culture, that happens to draw attention to themselves by the high achievement of their kids.</p>

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<p>In Hawaii, Asians predominate over other races. The parenting varies, especially depending on how long the parents have lived in the US & Hawaii. The longer they have lived in the US & Hawaii, the more they have adapted their parenting to encourage their kids to “be their best,” while also being happy. My kids went to an elite prep school that annually churns out more NMFs than the rest of the state. It publicly states that students should only take 1 AP/year and talk to the counselor & get approval if the STUDENT wants to take more.</p>

<p>The upper middle class Asian parents (including Chinese and Japanese and Vietnamese) are interested in their kids doing their best, whatever that is. I have never heard any of them brag about threatening to burn their possessions or harm them from not practicing music or even not doing their best. I have heard some of them withdraw privileges live TV & electronic when the child’s grades drop (because the bright kid doesn’t turn in homework and/or really isn’t trying). From all my observations, there families are happy and the families show their love by more than just shuttling them between their activities.</p>

<p>We purposely raised our kids to think for themselves and learn for the enjoyment of it. We have been rewarded because each of our two kids have set their own high standards and both love learning, reading, and have many nice friends and loving relationships. To us, this is success–they adapt to the environments they find themselves in fairly quickly and are able to improvise as needed. They are happy to try new experiences and foods and roles. They have faced rejections–from schools, jobs, applications and others but have very little hesitation about trying again and again (and encouraging others to do so as well). They are leaders but also happy to be followers. They care about others and overcome the adversity in many creative ways. We have encouraged our kids to find and stick with the balance that works for them–work & play, risk & reward, rest & activity, rather than relying on an external source (parents, school, others) to direct these. [For what it’s worth, this has allowed my kids to do well in spite of continuing serious chronic health issues, getting into select program at the U of their choice and graduate with their HS peers. S is currently awaiting the start of his full-time job which he selected out of the three he was offered.]</p>

<p>We have always respected (& usually agreed with) most of their choices–clothing from a very young age, participating or not in activities (including scouts, honor programs, sports, music, attending or not social activities including play dates & sleepovers), course selection, schools & colleges, and jobs & careers. We had been shown similar respect in making our own choices while growing up and feel we turned out OK (all 7 of us finished college & 6 completed grad school, all have fulfilling careers, 6 are happily married to original spouses & one happily single, happy kids, good relationships with parents, all our sibblings & in-laws). Ironically, my Chinese parents are publicly prouder of me now that I’ve resigned for my more prestigous profession & started a non-profit.</p>

<p>I was amused in 6th grade when S confided in me that his goal for basketball was to be 6th or 7th best on the school team. He said that way he was likely to play every game but didn’t have to have the pressure of being 1st string (those boys wanted it MUCH more than he). I was struck & impressed by his logic and ability to articulate it. Similarly, he was happy to be 2nd chair for trumpet–he rarely practiced and was very good; the 1st chair worked his very best to keep his seat & was in youth symphony and private lessons. S liked trumpet as a release & the band director knew & respected it–he continued it all through HS & enjoyed it. “Strict” parenting would not respect these choices and allow our kids to figure out what THEY value and why.</p>

<p>I do not believe “strict” parenting where you do what a parent/authority figure orders out of guilt, obligation, or other motive guides the person parented to come up with an internal moral compas or self-motivation. It is hard for them to learn balance and pacing if they are trying to follow someone else’s desires and strictures rather than trying to figure out what they are passionate about and what will satisfy and motivate them! I never wanted my kids to be exceptional little robots. I am not particularly interested in learning more about extreme parenting, which I believe is badly flawed.</p>

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<p>Sure. But don’t kid yourself that the pressure to be academically focused and aspire to attend a top university isn’t disproportionately heavy in the Asian communities as evidenced here on CC. I don’t see any threads about “My Jewish/Italian/Irish/German/Swiss/Finnish/Australian parents told me that if I don’t get into HYPSM, I’ll disgrace them.”</p>

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<p>Pizzagirl, that’s because of the strong cultural identity Asians have with their countries of origin. The students who post here are mostly children of recent immigrants and they are experiencing a disconnect between strict Asian upbringing and mainstream US cultural norms. I sense there are very few second generation Asian students who will make those comments.</p>

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<p>How many immigrant children of those groups frequent CC with a strong focus on education? I hear stories of strict childhood upbringing from my Jewish friends but they are past the age where they would post those comments here.</p>

<p>Just because they are not on CC doesn’t mean they don’t exist. Perhaps your knowledge should encompass more than CC can give you.
Kinda scary that your opinions are framed by posts on CC.</p>

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<p>“Why is it that the shyest, most non-participatory, most unquestioning and risk adverse students in my class are usually children of Chinese immigrants?”</p>

<p>starbright, I think you meant “risk-averse” (without the “d”). As a teacher, thought you’d want to know…</p>

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<p>Just as a note - I looked up that piece “Little White Donkey” by Ibert. It’s decidedly not a beginner piece, but is ranked at the same level of difficulty as a Chopin Nocture. I’m sure a child of 7 would have to spend a lot of hours to achieve technical perfection and I’m dubious that that same child would be able to bring any sort of artistry to the piece. In my view, a young pianist would be much better off playing an easier piece and putting their own stamp on it.</p>

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<p>I think it’s a common recital piece – its easy to find videos of children as young as age 6 performing it on You Tube. (It’s clearly difficult, but not odd in and of itself that a youngster would be playing some version of it at a recital. Keep in mind that piano instructional books and teachers often modify the original pieces to enable them to be played by youngsters with small hands. My daughter was dead set at around age 8 on learning to play “The Entertainer” for a recital – and she did, and did it well – but the version she played was decidedly not nearly as complex as the full sheet music. I’d note that was the only piece my d. ever did learn. One piece does not a musician make.)</p>

<p>But the forced practice described in the article would not be the best way for a person to learn. The brain consolidates memories for skill learning during sleep, so an hour of practice + a good night’s sleep would probably be more effective for integrating the skills than 6 hours of continuous practice. The worst thing the parent could possibly do to hamper the learning process was to deny the child rest and breaks. See for example: <a href=“http://walkerlab.berkeley.edu/reprints/Walker%20et%20al._Neuron_2002.pdf[/url]”>http://walkerlab.berkeley.edu/reprints/Walker%20et%20al._Neuron_2002.pdf&lt;/a&gt;
<a href=“http://www.cell.com/neuron/abstract/S0896-6273(02)00766-3[/url]”>http://www.cell.com/neuron/abstract/S0896-6273(02)00766-3&lt;/a&gt;
<a href=“Awareness modifies the skill-learning benefits of sleep - PubMed”>Awareness modifies the skill-learning benefits of sleep - PubMed;
<a href=“http://www.pnas.org/content/99/18/11987.full[/url]”>http://www.pnas.org/content/99/18/11987.full&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>There are dozens of studies to this effect. I would expect a highly educated person like Chua to be aware of such research. </p>

<p>I don’t think the issue was ever about the daughter’s piano skills. The mother’s account is a portrait of an over-controlling parent, intent on “winning” and on living vicariously through the accomplishments of the children. I also think this is a case of a very disturbed parent – one who is unable to perceive her children as being separate from herself – latching onto an ethnic stereotype to justify her inappropriate and abusive parenting skills. I don’t think this is something that is restricted to a particular ethnicity. I think that there are cruel and abusive parents of every stripe who rationalize their overbearing parenting styles along the lines of, “this is the way I was brought up”, whatever their particular ethnic background.</p>