<p>CantSilence, do you really think Berkeley offers less opportunity than say, all but mayby 50 or so schools that others cannot? And are students not allowed to take class pass/not pass and not be considered realy students? At brown you can take everything pass/not pass. At certainly schools such as MIT, the first year grades used to be p/np and not shown to the outside world, and now it's just the first semester. And your rhetoric of "as it's been show before" lacks substance. But is this not the same at any school? Do you really think people are taking 6 hard classes at a time at other schools? Be reasonable. I am not trying to say that the average Berkeley student is amazing, or that Berkeley lacks all problems, but some of your points lack substance.</p>
<p>Can't Silence Truth sounds eerily the same as Polite Antagonis. Coincidence?</p>
<p>Cantsilencetruth/Politeantagonis, how many email accounts do you have?</p>
<p>Many large public schools have study abroad programs. In most cases, students must make their own opportunity at a big public school anyways.</p>
<p>So insofar as my criticism, Berkeley is much like a typical state school with af ew caveats.</p>
<p>1) The faculty is much better than most other schools.
2) There is a much bigger bureacratic problem at the UC's becasue of California's bad governance than at other schools.
3) It is steeped in liberal, Californian culture.<br>
4) It has some name-brand value versus smaller schools.</p>
<p>Those are the main differences. </p>
<p>And my point about that guy is he made his own opportunity, as any motivated person can at any school and he wasn't particularly impressive. A great deal of his gpa must be based on classes taken at other schools and was taken with pass/not pass. Sure other people at Brown or MIT don't can take pass/not pass but I'm pretty sure that the top students at Brown, or MIT would be far more impressive than him. Just look back 2 years ago and you'll see a girl with a pumped up GPA and her only EC was being an editor on a journal. And I know what goes on at these journals; just pad your resume and go affairs. Berkeley students are unimpressive.</p>
<p>
[quote]
A great deal of his gpa must be based on classes taken at other schools and was taken with pass/not pass.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>A great deal? A few classes! You know what goes on in those journals, all of them, I'm sure, like you know how every single Berkeley student is unimpressive, every signle other public school has a better bureacracy, schools don't tend to be liberal, ect.</p>
<p>I think its safe to say that Berkeley is among the most liberal college campuses they're out there. And I've written for 2 journals and read the back issues of almost all of them when I was looking for journals to write for. The writign was of high scholl-quality in general as is the editing process.</p>
<p>And yes I do know what the bureacracy at places like UT and UVa and UW are like because i have friends there and its nowhere near as bad as Berkeley's.</p>
<p>You ever been to Vassar? Colleges with far more liberal reputations, such as Bard, Brown, Reed, St Johns college, Haverford? Why is it that Berkeley generally doesn't make lists from the Princeton review about how liberal it is? There are a good 30 colleges which I think are easily far more liberal than Berkeley.</p>
<p>Also, five schools does not translate to "all other public schools," but you could say "other top public schools" and you would be far more fair and accurate.</p>
<p>For In-State Engineering majors, Berkeley is the place to go. if you are from OOS, choose MIT =)</p>
<p>I assume you mean faculty then which is what that ranking refers too. More pertinent to an undergrad is the political leanings of their cohorts which are extremely liberal. So I guess I was no specific in pointing out that I meant the specific undergrad. My bad.</p>
<p>In general, university medal recepients don't impress me. Because of the way Berkeley grades, if they have that high a gpa there is usually a great deal of gaming involved in it. And it said he took 3 semesters abroad. THREE. That's 3 out of 8 semester making for 37.5% of his experience and his grade. That's pretty big. </p>
<p>The truth is Berkeley is what you make of it, but its harder to make the most of it versus other schools, especially the schools most people will compare Berkeley too such as the top Lacs, privates, and other top publics. The cost in time is not worth the benefit at all. Yeah they are smart people if you go and canvass the campus and find the ones that are smart, not busy, and willing to be friends. If you get a crappy class you're usually stuck with it because all the popular majors and needed classes are impacted and its hard to switch. You also get less feedback on how you're grading because the GSI's are swamped and less assignments in the first place because of the large sizes as well.</p>
<p>Berkeley can be and often is a bad experience.</p>
<p>I most certainly do not mean the faculty- I mean the students. Have you met any of the really liberal liberals here? And they're far more common at other schools- more the norm! Not just the general middle liberal liberal and moderate liberal, but the really, really liberal liberals, that make up some of population here. These things don't refer to faculty- but as far as faculty goes, Berkeley does have a generally liberal one.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Berkeley can be and often is a bad experience.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Let's put this inperspective. Of those that repsonded to the survey from last year, most of them, how many characterized it as a "bad experience?" </p>
<p>
[quote]
If you get a crappy class you're usually stuck with it because all the popular majors and needed classes are impacted and its hard to switch.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I disagree- you aren't stuck with it at all. And what do you mean by "popular majors?" MCB is the most popular, yet it's not impacted. Were you unable to major in something that you wanted? </p>
<p>
[quote]
You also get less feedback on how you're grading because the GSI's are swamped and less assignments in the first place because of the large sizes as well.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Is it really different, relative to other top publics?</p>
<p><<berkeley can="" be="" and="" often="" is="" a="" bad="" experience.="">></berkeley></p>
<p>Then why don't you leave, PA? Just leave. Why adopt a different screen name and keep complaining? It's so unbecoming, even for a virtual entity.</p>
<p>So that the people visiting this site can have some semblance of real discussion about Berkeley's bad points and what its really like. I'll leave you to your happy pro-ucb groupthink when may 1st comes and people have already decided whether or not to go to berkeley.</p>
<p>Go look up groupthink in the dictionary- we've been over this before. Your use of it doesn't seem in line with the psychological phenomenon.</p>
<p>You have a common set of assumptions about Berkeley that don't reflect reality, close enough for me. Berkeley does not offer opportunity for out of state students, it denies them, especially considering the per-dollar value it charges people out of state for a crappy experience.</p>
<p>You reality isn't quite right either. Most Berkeley students suck isn't reality. Most Berkeley professors don't care about its students isn't reality. </p>
<p>You seem to be falling pray to many of the symptoms. Groupthink doesn't have to be the result of the majority- are you sure you're not a victim? I know many happy out of state students, sorry to burst your bubble. Go take a poll of out of state students and see how many feel "denied." It denies them? I'm sorry, but no. It gives them the opportunity it gives to in-state students, but it costs out of state students what, 7 thousand more? But lets ignore taxes here, because you don't care about that.</p>
<p>No, PA aka CST, your reality doesn't reflect the general reality at Berkeley and I would venture to say anywhere else. You are incapable of creating happiness for yourself or you wouldn't be spending so much time and energy spreading negativity, anonomously, on a message board. You really need to get out of your room/cage/prison. Have you seen a doctor?</p>
<p>Nonresident Tuition Fee N/A 8,652.00</p>
<p>Per SEMESTER.</p>
<p>I'm not assuming everyone is unhappy here, just that many people do have bad experiences and a bad time at Berkeley. </p>
<p>Your link supports my views more than refutes it.</p>
<p>"Collective Rationalization: Members discredit and explain away warning contrary to group thinking."</p>
<p>My initial post was completely rational and tried to be unbiased. I still got accused of making stuff up or being a troll then.</p>
<p>"Excessive Stereotyping:The group constructs negative sterotypes of rivals outside the group."</p>
<p>I never said all or most were unhappy, I just said there is a significant plurality that will be dissatisfied with the Berkeley experience. Its the people at Berkeley that twist statistical information to say that 1.6% of a people that picked the most extreme form of dissatisfaction in a non-random survey is somehow indicative that the vast majority of students at Berkeley are happy here is the one that's stereotyping.</p>
<p>"Mindguards: Some members appoint themselves to the role of protecting the group from adverse information that might threaten group complacency.</p>
<p>What you're all doing isn't it?</p>
<p>You are the grand stereotyper, my friend. I do not construct negative stereotypes of you, but you seem to make all of Berkeley as crap, the students terrible, everyone's liberal, blah blah blah. A signifcant plurality? What numbers lie within that? "it's people at Berkeley that twist that" well, what better information is there? You really ****ed off and out to proove a point? I think your experiences should be taken into account, but the statistical information is more valid Sorry. And what's indicative of the happiness is not that student didn't pick the very dissatistifed, but that many picked satisfied, and very satisfied. You're trying to twist things about now. You. </p>
<p>Which initial post was that? The first one you've done on here? Much
proof has been presented refuting a few of the claims, yet you cling to those. We could, for what, the seventh time go over that if you want. What common assumptions do you think "Berkeley grouthinkers" hold? That the school is perfect? It isn't. Perhaps people who feel that way have some groupthink in them. But am I that person? No. I'm not here to guard the fantasies of people. But many of your claims are off base. Your tactics often involve a few examples that you portray as the norm. I'm not here to protect peoples images of Berkeley, but I think what your portray is far more accurate than most, and while you have had some decent ideas exposed over time, you are generally negative, and your arguments invalid. What complacency am I protecting? i think Berkeley should be improved.</p>
<p>Man! you gotta be outta mind if u talk down Berkelely like that. Berkeley is as prestigious as Harvard, MIT, Yale Stanford like that. Engineering/Science-wise, it surely ranks as Top Two in the world, along with MIT ! ! !</p>
<p>The groupthink comment was addressed the the general population of pro-ucb'ers.</p>
<p>And we can go over my points again if you want, I still stand by them and the only thing that was found is that they're are enough different situations at Berkeley for either positive or negative decisions either way. I'm just pointing out how bad Berkeley can get and how very little its worth it to come here as an out-of-state student. </p>
<p>Berkeley can best be thought of as a dichotomy. A top faculty but a middling/mediocre undergrad population. Some majors have small classes, but many majors--the most popular ones--have large, informal classes where you are churned out as a statistic grade-wise. Some very engaged students mixed in with very disengaged students. Its impossible to tell what the exact numbers are because nobody takes statistics on these things and social statics are always hard to quantify. I think its pretty simple to see many of the things I say are subjective, and as I've pointed out, I just want the idea out there so people can see for themselves. </p>
<p>I just want to keep pointing out all of Berkeley's bad sides so people don't get lured into Berkeley. If you're unhappy here, in many cases you are trapped and its very hard to escape. I've made the best of the situation and am heading for greener pastures. I'm just warning a certain group of people that might be coming here not to waste 4 years of their lives in a place like Berkeley.</p>