<p>Suppose a student could go to any one of the Ivies she chose to. Fit is not an issue because she likes them all, though each in their own way. Since she is unsure of her career path or passion, each promises to expose her to a different environment and opportunities. Which one should she choose? Bascially, I think the question is: Is there one of the Ivies which seems to take a real interest in helping students like that find out where they belong in the academic world and guiding them down the best road for them individually? For example, I've heard that the academic advising at Harvard is a weak area. But I'm not even certain if this quality I'm looking for is about academic advising per se. It just seems to me that so many Ivy-bound kids are already very driven and well on their way in a given direction before they even arrive, even though I'm sure many eventually do change their minds.</p>
<p>I think you're not getting answers because the Ivies, in general, are not given to the sort of personalized advising/handholding that this student seems to want.</p>
<p>Brown, no questions asked.</p>
<p>Yeah, I was thinking Brown. The open curriculum would give her plenty of opportunity to explore. But you could also make an argument for Columbia's strong core, which would force her to take a wide range of subjects and in doing so she might discover that she really loves something she never thought she would.</p>
<p>Marian, I guess that's what I was afraid of. My D is an athlete and it looks like she might well have a very good selection of schools to choose from come next year. I'm just not sure that her lack of current passion and academic focus would be a good fit for the Ivy League in general, even if she can get in. She does have excellent grades and test scores, but it's not as though she knew at age 4 she what wanted to be or anything like that. The Ivy-bound kids we know seem pretty confident about what they like.</p>
<p>If it is name only, you want HYP. But perhaps you want more of a selection in majors, more diversity in student body--then apply at Cornell.</p>
<p>If she's a recruited athlete, she'll have the opportunity to visit the campuses, stay overnight, meet the coach for her sport, etc. I suspect this will narrow things down for her.</p>
<p>I can't speak for any of the other Ivies, but my daughter is at Brown and says many of her friends have no idea what they want to study or what they want to do when they grow up. Some of the driven ones became a lot less driven and more open to exploration after failing organic chemistry. My daughter hasn't a clue, and was relieved to discover she wasn't the only one without a plan for her next 10 years.</p>
<p>Here on CC it seems like all the students applying to Ivies know they want to be doctors or investment bankers. Maybe I'm naive, but I don't think that's representative of the actual students at any of the schools (except at Wharton, probably). I'll bet there are students at all the Ivies -- at every school -- who are undecided or who change their minds.</p>
<p>Well, she has gone on some unofficial visits already. She finds things to like and dislike about each school, but none has stood out as head and shoulders above the rest. But most were Ivies, and so they're all top notch colleges with a lot to impress. Also, she's an easy-going and social kid and feels she can adapt equally well to a city campus or a rural one, and can find friends among any type of students. </p>
<p>Morrismm: Would you say an econ degree from U Penn Wharton has the same prestige as one from HYP, or more so?</p>
<p>^An "econ" degree from Wharton (business degree for all intensive purposes) is just as "prestigious" as a degree from HYP (whatever that means). However, for a kid who doesn't know what she wants to do, it's a very focused degree with little exploration allowed in the first few years compared to a general liberal arts degree from Penn or any other college. If she decides that business is not for her after a year she can always switch into Arts and Sciences and pursue a liberal arts degree. I'd say there are a lot of athletes in Wharton compared to Arts and Sciences and Engineering, but there are still a bunch in the other schools at Penn.</p>
<p>My first reaction to the thread caption was why an Ivy at all if undecided about which Ivy. But I see it isn't really about Ivy for Ivy's sake.</p>
<p>I doubt Ivy students are much more decided than those anywhere else. Top students (at Ivy or anywhere) might have a lot of drive-- drive to do well, drive to explore-- but the drive isn't necessarily focused on one academic pursuit, especially not when they start. And they might have passion, but the passion is likely to be outside the classroom. I think your daughter will have a lot of company as an undecided.</p>
<p>You (your daughter) should consider your question-- best for undecided-- with regard to safeties and matches as well as the tippy-top.</p>
<p>Look at when students are required to formally declare a major. A school that wants it early is probably not the best for undecideds.</p>
<p>"Choosing the Right College" has thorough essays on many top colleges and addresses acadmic advising in those essays. The information is useful whether or not you agree with the author about the value of a core curriculum or what should be in it.</p>
<p>I think a system like University of Rochester would be good for somebody who is undecided-- students have to take a cluster of three related courses in each of three divisions of learning (social sciences, humanities, natural sciences). They seem pretty flexible about what makes a cluster. On the other hand, I'm not so sure Rochester has anything special in terms of academic advising.</p>
<p>Brown: One of the direct consequences of open curriculum is that it requires strong advising, and I believe Brown has made a significant investment in that. A little downside warning though: My daughter (who is sort of negative on Brown, refused to apply even though it was a fairly natural fit) reports that quite a number of the smart-but-undirected friends of hers who went to Brown have wound up leaving for a while, doing something else. They haven't found themselves academically in 3-4 years. Not true of the recruited athlete, however, someone who statistically might have been in the bottom 10 or 20 kids in the class at Brown, and is doing great and loves it.</p>
<p>Dartmouth: A big LAC. Real community, kids don't get lost (except sometimes down a bottle).</p>
<p>Princeton: Not so different, maybe a little higher-powered.</p>
<p>Columbia: The core puts off for a year deciding what you want to do, may give some ideas. But not known for advising or friendliness.</p>
<p>Yale: Has always had pretty good advising, but not a great place to flounder in.</p>
<p>Harvard, Penn, Cornell: I think you have to know what you want to get a lot out of them.</p>
<p>Cornell is not good at advising, it is a big red machine, you have to take the initiative to get what you want out of it. But the flip side is that it has so many different schools, it is very easy for you to take courses in other schools and transfer later if your interest should change. Many of my daughter's friends have transferred from A&S to Hotel, or from AEM (undergrad business) to engineering.</p>
<p>Cornell has separate schools, and according to what I'm told you can't take classes at another one without transferring, so that might be a poor choice.
[Edit: cross posted with oldfort, who probably has more accurate info about taking classes across schools. But that's not what I was told.]</p>
<p>The rest of them seem to be more wide open, except that at Penn you have the Wharton possibility (but logically students must be able to take classes at "regular" Penn, since Wharton presumably doesn't offer science, language, lit, et al), and at Columbia there is a separate engineering school (no idea how the relationship with the rest of Columbia works).</p>
<p>FWIW, my S is entering an Ivy in September, and he is dedicated to the liberal arts experience and determined NOT to pick a major in advance. When asked what he plans to study next year, he says "a little of everything." The only thing I'm fairly certain he's going to do is start a 3rd language.</p>
<p>I think that schools where it is assumed that you can be good at math/science/humanities and moreover deeply interested in all of them--and which have a strong undergraduate focus--would suit your D best. Of the Ivys, I'd think Brown, Dartmouth, Princeton, and Yale.</p>
<p>Our impressions of Brown was that there was great intellectual curiosity and the desire to explore academically. But the natural flip side to that was less of an emphasis on career preparation than at the other schools. That could be the kiss of death for a wishy-washy kid like my D.</p>
<p>If you want a strong preprofessional student body, Penn is the place to be. With 3 professional undergraduate schools (Wharton, Engineering, Nursing) along with a slew of kids in Arts and Sciences who are premed, prelaw, or looking to go into business, there are a lot of kids who have direction. There are still lots of students here who have no idea what they want to do and the course offerings, many different unique majors, and advising make it a little easier to figure out what you want to do. Penn has graduation requirements for kids in Arts and Sciences. While they are not as intense as Columbia's core, they still encourage you to take classes in many different fields.</p>
<p>It's hard to beat H or P for general breadth of academic strength in the humanities, social sciences, life sciences, physical sciences. P seems to be a bit more nurturing. Y seemed wonderful to us for humanities or social sciences, not so much other fields. Can't comment on the other Ivies.</p>
<p>None of the Ivies will have an emphasis on "career preparation" for a kid who doesn't ask for it (say, by applying to Wharton). </p>
<p>The phrase "kiss of death" is perhaps a little hysterical as applied to the prospect of getting a degree from Brown. I'm certain that most Brown graduates do not starve to death after completing their poor-career-preparation majors.</p>
<p>Cornell is the opposite of Brown in that the majority of its students are in professional rather than liberal arts majors, and even in the liberal arts college, the two most popular majors are biology and economics, reflecting the heavy career orientation of the student body.</p>
<p>Most Cornell students seem to have already decided on what they want (even though they may change their minds once they get there). I'm not sure if it's a good place for the truly undecided. Within the College of Arts and Sciences (my daughter is a student there), advising is basically nonexistent unless the student seeks it out. During her entire freshman year, my daughter met her faculty advisor exactly once. Kids don't even need their advisor's signature to register for courses. My daughter, who knew what she wanted to major in before she arrived, likes things this way. Yours might not.</p>
<p>I think that if you are undecided, you should look for a school that doesn't make you choose your major so early in the process.</p>
<p>Yes, "kiss of death" was no doubt hyperbole. It's just that my D is more of a follower who molds herself to the prevailing peer opinion. So while she needs an environment in which she can explore without feeling out of place for not already knowing what she wants, I'd still like her to adopt the expectation that at some point about half way through the 4 years she needs to decide on something marketable to pay back her college loans. That's why I posted, because I'm confused about whether she needs a freer experience or a stricter core or pre-professional experience.</p>