BFA in MT?

<p>I have been reading posts on this forum for over a year now and have gained a lot of insightful advice for how to help my daughter as she enters her senior year of high school. She is planning to audition for BFA MT programs beginning in the fall. I have been completely supportive of her plans even though I worry about her prospects for employment after graduation. Many of you have given very positive points of view about that, so I have been feeling a little better about it. </p>

<p>I recently came across this blog post that gave me reason to worry again. It was written by Tom Loughlin, the Chair of the Department of Theatre and Dance at SUNY Fredonia.</p>

<p>a</a> poor player , Archive The BFA Musical Theatre Degree Should Die</p>

<p>If any of you would care to comment, I would love to hear what your thoughts are.</p>

<p>The article used statistics selectively, and in doing so, paints a picture that I think is needlessly bleak. For instance:</p>

<ol>
<li><p>There are MT employment opportunities in areas that did not exist in the 1940’s and 50’s, such as cruise ships and theme parks. The author did not account for those in his analysis of the situation.</p></li>
<li><p>I don’t have the statistics to back this up, but I strongly suspect that National and International Tour employment is larger now than in the past, especially the 1940’s and 1950’s. I don’t think many musicals in the 1940’s and 1950’s (if any) had multiple simultaneous tours going on around the world, such as Wicked, Lion King, etc. The author did not factor tour employment into his statistics.</p></li>
<li><p>Broadway revenue is about 2.5 times higher now than in 1985 accounting for inflation (it is 5 times higher in actual dollars), with attendance up 70% over the same period. New productions over the past 5 years have been higher than in any other period since 1985. Check out this page:
[The</a> Broadway League - The Official Website of the Broadway Theatre Industry](<a href=“http://www.broadwayleague.com/index.php?url_identifier=season-by-season-stats-1]The”>Statistics - Broadway in NYC | The Broadway League)</p></li>
<li><p>Playing weeks, attendance, and revenue for National Tours is very strong - not quite as high as in the mid-1990s, but almost as good: [The</a> Broadway League - The Official Website of the Broadway Theatre Industry](<a href=“http://www.broadwayleague.com/index.php?url_identifier=touring-broadway-statistics]The”>Statistics - Touring Broadway | The Broadway League)</p></li>
<li><p>The number of working equity actors is up about 17% from 1989-90 to 2009-2010 (the latest statistics readily available from Actors Equity):
<a href=“http://www.actorsequity.org/docs/about/AEA_Annual_2009.pdf[/url]”>http://www.actorsequity.org/docs/about/AEA_Annual_2009.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/li&gt;
</ol>

<p>And so on. </p>

<p>No doubt it is a tough business. The Equity Report statistics regarding the overall employment of working actors are daunting. I think acting on Broadway is just as tough as trying to play NFL football. At my d’s PA HS, they tell them from day 1 the familiar refrain, “if you can think of doing something else, go do it now.”</p>

<p>But some do make it. You have to realistic about your talent, but if someone is truly passionate about something, it is better to have tried and failed than never to have tried at all. Having said that,it doesn’t seem prudent to enter this field with large debt upon graduation. And, if you desire stable employment with a steady paycheck, this is probably not the field for you.</p>

<p>Good points, EmsDad. I guess I’m just focused on the bloggers last paragraph. Would it be better for a student to get a degree in theatre that isn’t focused on the exclusive study of MT? One that is more focused on “studying how to create and devise theatre”?
I don’t know. Just thinking out loud.</p>

<p>I really think the BFA is right for some students, and the BA is right for others. Personally, I went into this process dead-set on a BFA in MT, so I could have performance classes and conservatory training sun up to sun down. I wasn’t interested much in pursuing technical theatre or anything besides performing. Now, as a graduating senior, I not only survived an exhausting audition process over the past year, but also realized a LOT about myself. I came to the shocking conclusion that I would not be happy in a BFA program, and therefore passed up BFAs for a BA in Theatre at USC, which will allow me to pursue a double minor in MT and Business. It’s not that I am steering away from my true passion (performing), it’s just that I want a well-rounded education with solid academics, study abroad, time to pursue internships/professional work in LA while still in school, etc. Throughout this process I have been exposed to more interests such as theatre design, tech, directing, and so on. I also realized something important - many famous MT performers have made it to Broadway without stepping foot on a college campus. Considering this, I figure that with my degrees I can find steady work in the entertainment industry (even if that means I’m doing paperwork for a theatre company), and then I can do auditions and shows on the side. In reality, this isn’t so different from BFA graduates, since they too must have survival jobs before they “make it big”! If I’m dedicated, I’m sure I’ll build up a great resume, and then who knows? Great things might just happen! I guess my rambling leads to this - I am MUCH more confident about my future career plans now than I would have been if I chose a BFA program. Of course, many students might feel the opposite. Like I said, I realized a lot about myself over the past year. I say go ahead and do auditions, and I promise things will fall into place as they were meant to be! Good luck!</p>

<p>My daughter, getting a BFA at NYU Steinhardt - Vocal Performance, MT concentration, found that all the credits she got for AP classes in high school is freeing up her time enough that she will also be able to minor in “Business of Music and Entertainment Industry” (or something like that!) and so gain a number of additional skills on the side. Do your research carefully, and make sure your student gets as much out of the way as possible in high school so more options are wide open.</p>

<p>Mynemezzo–My D also started out dead set on a BFA in MT. After being accepted to 2 auditioned BFA MT programs, she opted for a BA in Theatre with a concentration in Performance at College of Charleston. She will minor in Dance and take Voice lessons every semester. It was after careful scrutiny of the curricula of each program that she made her decision.</p>

<p>llkkaa95–just look very carefully at the specifics of each program. They are all so vastly different. D decided that the BA in Theatre at CofC was best for her. She wanted the exposure to various aspects of theatre, not just musical theatre. Sounds like you are having the same thoughts, so research…research…research! Every kid is different. MT is different at every school, but BA in Theatre is different at every school, too. The only one that felt right for my D was CofC. Find the right fit!</p>

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<p>Like some others here, our D decided before the regular BFA audition season (she had done two sets of early auditions with outstanding results) that her top choice school was a BA (Northwestern), in part because developing as a straight actor was extremely important to her. She couldn’t be happier with her choice, so I would certainly suggest looking HARD at some top BAs before reflexively moving down the BFA path.</p>

<p>I want to emphasize that many of the most talented MTs we know have chosen the BA route (including many national MT award winners, kids with Broadway credits and kids who were admitted to the top BFA schools), so in spite of what is sometimes intimated here on CC a BA is NOT just a fallback for those who can’t get in to BFA programs.</p>

<p>My son (class of 2011) also began the process determined to enroll in a BFA MT program only. Alas, as the prep/audition seasons evolved and he talked with many people along the way, in the end he opted for a BFA Acting (he applied to and was accepted into both). His reasoning was that he could always supplement his education with singing and dancing, but he wanted to focus on developing strong acting skills and capabilities in tech/development in order to be (maybe, ha ha?) more employable after graduation…we’ll see, he’s still in a BFA…Personally, I wanted him to utilize his ability in MATH and go for the engineering degree, and continue doing theatre on the side. But I learned the hard way from his older brother…you have to let them follow their dreams. Just don’t let them be stupid about it and go into ridiculous debt while doing so. And take consolation in the fact that they’re still getting an education, albeit a generalized one, that will certainly be beneficial to them no matter what they end up doing later on…</p>

<p>Honestly, I think the BFA, while it well trains students in dance, voice, acting, it does not teach you to handle rejection, other forms of training in theatre and essentially narrows your abilities. </p>

<p>Regardless of graduating, BFA or not, Theatre is a difficult career. Some programs may teach you to navigate it better than others (and some students may be learn to navigate better than their classmates).</p>

<p>If I ruled the world (dreaming big here!) I’d do away with the BFA, BA programs all together. Have all freshmen take basic classes, sophomores get to explore performance vs. technical, becoming more specific by Junior year and graduating with a major in Theatre with an emphasis in Musical Theatre/Stage Management/Devising Theatre/whatever. </p>

<p>Sadly, I don’t and therefore, I have to adapt what is in place. Yes, I do wish I had some aspects of the BFA major (mainly, the specific performance classes) but I love that I get to study more than just the onstage part because who knows what will get bring me success and stability? Stage managing, playwriting, directing, wig-making, whatever.</p>

<p>If I may also add: Tom Loughlin is opinionated, but honest. A dose of reality, if you will. And if there’s one thing in that whole article I agree with:</p>

<p>“Theatre students are better off if they spend their time studying how to create and devise theatre, and if they have the interest and the talent, take vocal lessons and/or dancing lessons as a supplement to the primary study of how to create quality theatre. Having those skills are an asset in any situation.”</p>

<p>Stop. Please. I’m sorry, but the statistics are absurd in that article. They never take into account how many of the students go on to be successful. I’m not talking about success in theatre, I’m talking about success. The statistics on the number of people who actually go into the field they majored in is quite low. If you get a degree in sociology it is highly unlikely you will become a sociologist. A college degree in any field is about becoming more than a philosopher, historian, political scientist, etc. It is about becoming a life long learner, someone who has the skills it takes to excel at whatever you decide you need to excel.</p>

<p>My wife, a brilliant woman, has a degree in biology, and went on to begin a Ph.D. in Molecular Cell Biology. She quit one year in because she decided she wanted to make money. Many years later she is an executive with a software company and it has nothing to do with biology. She doesn’t have a degree in programming (although she worked as a programmer), nor does she have a degree in business or project management. What she had was the ability to gain knowledge.</p>

<p>She is norm outside of a few fields. The simple fact of the matter is that the skills needed in the marketplace are ever-changing. What did you want to be at 18? I can tell you for a fact that I never, ever saw myself as a theatre artist, and never teaching. What you want out of a program is to train the student to be able to work in theatre. But along the way they will learn to communicate, adapt, be entrepreneurial, be able to take any criticism, read, memorize, attack problems, work in large groups under high pressure and work towards a single goal with a firm deadline. Find me a field that doesn’t want these skills and I’ll be impressed.</p>

<p>Going to undergraduate school isn’t the same as going to vocational school. We can’t teach them the right way or the wrong way to fix a truck or weld. We can help them develop the tools to become a successful theatre artist. You are absolutely correct in saying that the odds are against them. They are really, really stacked against them. But that’s only if you focus success on being on stage and making a good living. I simply don’t measure it that way. And I speak as someone who spent a long time in the free-lance community. </p>

<p>I ran across this today. I recommend it highly. Not everything is relevant to this thread but it cuts to the heart of it in the third paragraph. </p>

<p>Sorry if I’m a bit on the soap-box about this. My apologies if I came off as harsh.</p>

<p>^^ Lookin’ for the “Like” button again! Ken, did you mean to include a link to an article? Or maybe I read it wrong.</p>

<p>I believe Ken was referencing a blog and so I am not sure but that may be why it didn’t post as a link. But since I just read where he posted it somewhere else, I am going to take a chance and post the contents here, hoping this is indeed the one he mentioned:</p>

<p>How Grad School Changed (and Didn’t Change) My Life by Jason King Jones
APRIL 27, 2012 | BY Jason King Jones
For the last three years I have participated in that sacrificial rite of passage that so many theater artists have undertaken (and so many more theater artists have questioned): an MFA program. In my twenties, I was cobbling together a living as an “NYC-based director” (which means I lived near Manhattan and was predominantly working out of town). During that time, I saw several of my friends head off to get an MFA then return to the city. For some, the experience was positively transformational, but several of my friends simply returned three years later older, poorer, and more disillusioned with the profession than when they left. Many were quietly humiliated to have to return to the temping or the barista counter—the only difference now being the three letters behind their name and a percentage of their infrequent artistic paychecks going to union dues and their new-found agent/manager.</p>

<p>Am I being unfair? Perhaps.</p>

<p>You see, as Clayton Lord points out in his Intrinsic Impact essay, any time you try to apply an economic model to an art form, the results are disappointing. Going to grad school merely to “improve your career” is like starting a theater company merely to spur economic growth in a community. It’s missing the point, and for a long time, so was I.</p>

<p>But let’s face it, you don’t commit to a life change like graduate school without some expectation of a better life at the other end. I always am more apt to participate when I am hopeful for a reward. However, it took Jim Petosa, director of Boston University’s School of Theatre, to set me straight. In my application interview with him, he responded to my talk of future jobs with a version of the following statement (forgive me, Jim—it’s been three years): “The goal here is not to satisfy your career opportunity needs; the goal is to radicalize your directing.” I can’t remember if he said anything after like, “your career will take care of itself,” but once I realized I was dealing with a guy who wanted to “radicalize” my work, I wasn’t so worried about how to grab the next gig.</p>

<p>If you’re reading this with some level of suspicion, I don’t blame you. If you think I was foolish for deciding to commit to a program based on a seductive and abstract idea—an idea that after three years offered nothing concrete, that’s okay. By the time I had this conversation with Jim, I was looking for a big idea, not a big promise.</p>

<p>I went to grad school because I needed a big change. I needed to jump back into an environment with structure and deadlines. I needed room to experiment with some aesthetic ideas that had begun to worm their way around my brain. I needed a new mentor who didn’t know me from my teenage years. I needed to remove myself from my familiar surroundings and practices in order to transform my approach to text. I needed be around people who were paid to help make me better at what I do. I needed to study under these great teachers and work on my own teaching skills too. And, certainly, I needed more opportunities that come from committing to an expansive and connected network of working professionals.</p>

<p>Did I really need all this, or was I simply convincing myself that I needed the structure because I feared being without it? Could I have found all this without a grad program?</p>

<p>For the past couple of months, I’ve been reflecting on the big lessons I’ve learned in the last three years. For better or worse, I have learned the following:
My greatest strengths are also my greatest weaknesses.
Knowing better who I am empowers me to make stronger, more intuitive choices.
To find value in even the most misguided of productions.
I am far more creative when I viscerally engage in the work.
Being alone with myself is very difficult.
I am often the most productive when I have very little free time.
The right seven words are profoundly more effective than the approximate twenty–seven words.
After three years of grad school, my wife’s feedback is still right.
I suck at life/work balance. (So far, it’s been like life/work pendulum swing, only the pendulum has been like that ship at the fair that thirty people ride on and it swings a few stories up in the air and as it hurtles to the earth it induces that nauseating sense of free fall.)</p>

<p>Three years of concentration on my craft allowed me to define my deficiencies in my process, explore alternative approaches to working on plays, exposed me to a host of new work and new ways of working, provided me a laboratory to test new approaches, and immersed me in a rich creative environment. Now, I read scripts differently now, ask different questions, speak differently to designers and actors, and differently approach my duties in the rehearsal room. If this is what Jim Petosa meant by radicalization, it happened.</p>

<p>Now, I find myself in another new city, making new friends and armed for whatever may happen. I feel optimistic and empowered. I know this sheen will eventually fade. The economics of a freelance directing life haven’t changed; neither has my responsibility to my family. I’ll still have to hustle. But, na</p>

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<p>I love your post and agree with it, but honestly some undergrad degrees are more vocational than others. It is worth carefully reviewing curriculum, professors and peers in any given program to see if you will gain a broad education or a more vocational one, and try to think ahead (to the extent that 18-year-olds can) about what you want from your time in college, NOT just at that first audition but over the fullness of your life.</p>

<p>I have been away awhile, and also, I sometimes try to avoid posting because so many other good folks here offer such consistently good advice – however, this posts compels a response. Let me start by saying I know Tom Loughlin from several professional gigs and a few educational contacts. I will be sending him a more personal note of the same ilk of my post.
I have several observations and issues with what he has written:

  • His Broadway stats are no surprise to anyone remotely connected to the professional world of theater, however the stats on new musicals leave out the existence, every year, of revivals and all the employment opportunities they provide.
  • He asks where is MT outside of Broadway and tours? – first, the number of tours is not at all suffering. Tom offers that there is MT limited outside Florida, Chicago, and Boston. This is flat out wrong, there are tons of MT in Dallas, Austin, Charlotte, Las Vegas, Houston, and many other cities –in fact, more than half of the work in MT is outside of Broadway theaters.
  • The question of the rise of BFA degree programs – I actually agree – there are far too many MT degree granting programs out there and the market cannot sustain so many. There are probably about 15 or so programs that deserve to exist because the level of training is so high and they have a high rate of successful alumni. These, unfortunately for most, tend to be private schools or state programs with an exception granted that allows them to charge higher tuitions. There are probably another ten or so schools that should continue because good training and good success rates – but offered at more affordable tuitions – a Consumer’s Best Buy so to speak.
  • The article speaks of a “high failure rate” – but defines success as Broadway. As I described above more than half the work to be had is outside of Broadway. He describes that most MT performers might end up doing more “straight” theater during their career – if that happens – SO WHAT? – Where is the tragedy in that? He does not begin to address the many opportunities for MT performers outside of strictly defined MT – Disney (and other theme parks), Branson, Pigeon Forge, cruise ships – yes, straight plays, vocal work, TV & movies, and so on.
  • The bit on dancing is strange – Yes, many musicals on Broadway do require a high level dancer - and some do not require a high level dancer. I do not get his point. The statement that “most dancers on Broadway today are probably exclusively dancers, not actors or singers.” Is so remotely far from the truth it leaves a person grasping for verbiage. Dancers rarely get to perform on Broadway stages these days unless they can, at least sing, and likely act as well. Tom is way off about triple threat training – it is, in fact, the very essence of what one should aspire to in today’s market. He does make a good point that dance training is a very necessary ingredient in the recipe from a successful MT career. “No one is writing material for triple threat actors” – Please! – I refer you to Best Actor in a Musical winner Norbert Leo Butz in CATCH ME IF YOU CAN. Or just about the entire cast of MEMPHIS. Or to the fact of the Tap Dance requirement for men in BOOK OF MORMON. Or most of the cast in SISTER ACT. The examples could go on….
    Yeap – Broadway is dying – that’s why we heard in 1975 a line from A CHORUS LINE, “don’t tell me Broadway is dying – I just got here” - that was over 35 years ago. As Samuel Clemmons once said, “The reports of my death are greatly exaggerated.”
    I did not read any other posts before I wrote – I just felt like I needed to write. I am sorry if this has been redundant.
    MT degrees do not come with a guarantee – it is a tough road to hoe -that is true. It is also true that most undergraduate degrees do not come with guarantees either. MT remains a viable option for those blessed with talent who are willing to work hard for what can seem an impossible dream.</p>

<p>very interesting thread.
thank you austinmtmom. i loved that article you posted…that is exactly how i feel about my own training. i am at school, yes, to hone my abilities to hopefully make myself more employable as an actor…that’s what i initially came for, but it has now morphed into learning how to be the best artist i can be. i now have no desire to go to college…getting the college degree is for my parents. what i am here for is my training, to learn how to think “radically” and to create and to breathe life into my work as a performer. i told someone the other day that i have grown out of my musical theatre phase. i chose to come to an acting program, but i had intended to make musical theatre my main focus upon graduating. now, however, i have no clue what i will be doing in the future. i have gained a huge passion for shakespeare and love doing straight theatre. also, i’ve developed a love for singing soul/r&b. opera isn’t my favorite thing, but i do love singing the rep. my training has opened me up to experimenting, that i don’t have to pigeon hole myself as a performer. this has come out of the push my faculty has given me to, in a sense, think outside of the box. college, at the moment, isn’t much about passing and doing well to make myself “successful” anymore for me, but a place for me to try things and play so that hopefully when i graduate, i have a clearer sense of what type of artist i want to become later.</p>

<p>i will have to say, however, i laughed at the comment that mt grads may be doing more “straight theatre” later in life. perhaps, he just meant “straight acting”, which would also encompass film/tv? because as far as i know, there is even less straight theatre work than mt work…especially for young performers. yes, the older you get, the more you generally get hired to do acting/character roles, but as i’ve been told time and time again, there is more money and employment in musicals than plays. when end of the rainbow was having their out of town try out here, michael cumpsty told my class that most of the work out there today in the theatre is first and foremost in musicals, followed by shakespeare (something many will agree, no offense to mt programs, most bfa mt programs will not prepare you for unless it is one very similar to cmu’s approach to mt training)</p>

<p>success should not be measured by being employed on broadway or at a highly regarded regional theatre. the fact of the matter is, many and most kids entering these bfa programs will never touch a broadway or big name regional theatre stage or even a big national or intl tour or . some because they won’t reach the “standards” expected. others because they’re not a common type that can easily be plugged into a musical chorus. and even some will have difficulty finding work simply because they’re an ethnic minority. this is the reason why having broadway as an end goal can be dangerous…it leads people to being jaded and bitter later if they put forth all their energy towards that. but if kids want to be devoting their lives, or even just they’re college careers, to this, so be it. things work out. if they don’t end up being the lucky few who can truly make a career off performing, then they’ll figure it out. we humans are a resilient group of beings. at least, a degree in mt or any art form teaches a young adult how to be passionate about something and to pursue that passion with a lot of heart. </p>

<p>what matters is the present, looking too far into the future is futile and almost worthless. </p>

<p>if a performer concentrates too much on what it means to be “successful”, chances are the life will eventually be sucked out of their performances cause they’re trying too hard to be something rather than just doing whatever the f*** they’re supposed to be doing. to paraphrase something an actor told my class once “actors should stop trying to do something brilliantly…just do the d*mn thing.” this rings true for real life. the goal isn’t to be a successful performer, but to be an honest, communicative performer. if the perspective shifts away from being good and successful, you’ll probably actually be good if talent is in you.</p>

<p>and if anything, dedication to art teaches more than just mastery of one’s chosen art form, but also a s*** ton about life itself.</p>

<p>What an amazing post #4! Now that sounds like a gal that will be successful in life! We learn more and more about ourselves everyday and we should be open to that.</p>

<p>In response to CCer2014 - any students reading who are in an ethnic minority, you are actually really in demand in college programs and the industry in general! Schools WANT and need ethnically and racially diverse groups of students, and this is because the industry (film, TV, theatre) needs this. One of the coaches who works alongside me is having a bunch of agent/manager meetings in LA this week following his MFA showcase, and he was having a discussion about that just today. He was told “agents and mangers jobs are to play percentages, and we all have a better shot of getting an ethnic actor cast than a 24yo white woman.” (Since he’s not a woman, this wasn’t a way of nicely letting him down :slight_smile: ) I post this not to discourage caucasian students, but to not discourage all other students reading here!! Yes, some things are specifically non-ethnic, but casting today is often color-blind, and there are also fewer non-caucasian actors out there, so they have a higher % chance of success.</p>

<p>CoachC is 100% accurate. No question.</p>

<p>agreed, its changing, but hasn’t revolutionized.
a then jr of my program was told 2 years ago while in london that he’d never be cast in roles other than the villain or terrorist because he’s middle eastern…
in “the hollywood complex”, someone told a little asian girl she’d have better luck auditioning for tv shows after pilot season…he said she’d never be cast as a lead on a pilot. and if she did, her show would not be picked up. the biggest role, he said, that she could ever play on a tv show would be the best friend of the lead. this was all based on the fact that she was asian…
i’m not trying to scare anyone away. CoachC, you’re well aware that I myself am an ethnic minority. we discussed the matter when i worked with you for my audition season. it certainly helped me stand out during audition time.<br>
there certainly is work for actors of color and when we’re auditioning for race-specific roles, it’s true, we face far less competition.<br>
but we have to be realistic. i definitely won’t be the first girl in my company to work at the guthrie; all the girls are young ingenues and therefore the same type as me…maybe except that i’m far shorter, so if they ever look to pull someone from my class, it probably won’t be me unless they’re looking to cast race-specific and i happen to fall into the category. every girl in my class is amazing, so i have no qualms saying that they’d probably go with more “traditional” casting when choosing between a group of equally abled candidates…</p>

<p>Sorry, CCer2014, I didn’t recall that you posted here, but I know who you are now! :slight_smile: I was certainly not accusing you of trying to scare anyone away, but I know firsthand how younger students can be scared by what they read on CC when they don’t yet have enough knowledge to build a context around a remark. I always try to clarify any remarks that seem like they could cause such response.</p>

<p>Your statement was “some (BFA grads) will have difficulty finding work simply because they’re an ethnic minority.” I have never known that to be true in musical theatre, film, or stage, and I think it’s extremely important for young, non-caucasian students and their families who may be doubting this endeavor for them to know that they are not at a disadvantage when it comes to getting work and in fact often will have a significant advantage, not just in race-specific roles. Will they play leads? In some cases yes, in some cases no - but when we discuss that, we’re getting back into that much more complex discussion of how each artist defines success. Many of my colleagues define success by paying their bills/living very comfortably by being a consistently-working actor, but others do define it as playing leads, originating roles, etc. That’s a valuable discussion to think about later in training, once one’s industry perception and skill set both become more defined: some types, ethnic and not, are more likely to play leads, and others are not.</p>