Big Ten expansion moves ahead

College Search & Selection
101

<p>Yes, ultimately Notre Dame could make more money by being in the Big 10 (and the Big 10 will make more money by having Notre Dame obviously). But the decision on whether ND goes to the Big 10 is really not about money, its about tradition, academics, fit, opportunity and the basketball and secondary sports situation.</p>

<p>The tradition of independence for the football program is huge and can’t be lightly regarded. Many many alums will be very disappointed if ND is forced to capitulate to a conference.</p>

<p>Academics is also a very big part of this. The last time the Big Ten issue came up a vote was taken and the faculty and admin was very much against the move to the Big Ten. The reason is Notre Dame’s teaching emphasis on undergrad education, more like a smaller liberal arts college, and of course Notre Dame’s Catholicism, which is obviously a huge difference in character from all the huge Big Ten land grant public research universities, and even Northwestern (with no religion factor). Notre Dame’s essential character is much closer to that of the Ivies than the huge universities like Michigan St, Ohio St, Minnesota and Wisconsin.</p>

<p>The problem here athletically is if what the Big Ten does implodes the Big East, ND would have to find a home for basketball again and its secondary non revenue producing sports. Unfortunately its no longer possible to be an independent in basketball, so a decimation of the Big East would force ND’s hand. Plus, a further tying up of all the available major bowl slots with even more stupid conference tie-ins (Big Ten #2 vs SEC #3 etc) would dry up to nothing opportunities for Bowl games, thus forcing ND to join a conference so they have some bowl opportunities. The bowl system was better when there were much more at large slots open in the big bowls.</p>

<p>While most of what happens will be dictated by what Notre Dame does, the Big Ten may leave ND with little choice if the fragile Big East falls apart, I am afraid to say. So in the end its not just about money, but a complex interweaving of a lot of factors which include academics and history.</p>

102

<p>Shanka, if I recall, the faculty at Notre Dame was very much in favor of being affiliated to the Big 10. In fact, if I recall, the faculty vote was virtually unanimous in favor of joining the conference. And why wouldn’t they wish to be affilitated with academic powerhouses such as Chicago, Michigan, Northwestern and Wisconsin? It was the board of trustees, acting on behalf of Notre Dame alums, that rejected the move. </p>

<p>And Shanka, a university with close to 8,500 undergrads and with only slightly more than 50% of classes with fewer than 20 students cannot consider itself LAC-like.</p>

103

<p>Alexandre, you are wrong. The faculty was very much against the move. And Chicago is not a Big Ten university. Plus, Notre Dame is higher rated than every Big Ten school except Northwestern, so its not like ND needs the Big Ten for its academic rep. ND is much closer in size and character to midsize liberal arts colleges than huge 40,000 student public universities. You really don’t know what you are talking about here, sorry.</p>

104

<p>Shanka, Chicago is a member of the Big 10 academic arm (CIC) and Notre Dame is not rated higher than Michigan. </p>

<p><a href=“http://www.cic.net/Home.aspx[/url]”>http://www.cic.net/Home.aspx&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Furthermore, I recommend you look into the records. You will see that virtually 100% of Notre Dame faculty wanted the move to the Big 10</p>

<p>Finally, size-wise, no Big 10 university has 40,000 undergrads. Most have between 20,000-30,000. Chicago has 4,000 and Northwestern has 8,000. LACs have between 1,000 and 2,000. Again, there is nothing LAC-like about Notre Dame.</p>

<p>In short, I know exactly what I am talking about.</p>

105

<p>^ shanks I woudn’t be so quick to judge … Chicago was an original member of the Bog 10 before UC decided to deemphisize athletics ([Big</a> Ten Conference - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia](<a href=“http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Ten_Conference]Big”>Big Ten Conference - Wikipedia))</p>

106

<p>No you don’t. The University of Chicago has nothing to do with the Big Ten, especially obviously in athletics, which is why this move would be made if it happens. Notre Dame is higher rated than Michigan, even if you go by the silly US News rankings. Where is Michigan ranked higher than ND by any reputable ranking of undergraduate schools? Again, you are wrong about the faculty. You are also wrong about the size of Big Ten schools. Check out Ohio State and Penn State for starters. Chicago AGAIN is not a Big Ten school.</p>

<p>I will repeat. ND’s as a primarily 8000 undergrad private school is much closer academically and in character of the undergrad experience to mid size LACs than 30-50,000 student land grant public research universites.</p>

<p>Man, ignorance is so frustrating sometimes.</p>

107

<p>shanks I woudn’t be so quick to judge … Chicago was an original member of the Bog 10 before UC decided to deemphisize athletic</p>

<p>who the heck cares what the Big Ten was over 50 years ago, lmao? What the heck does that have to do with joining the Big Ten now?</p>

108

<p>“Academics is also a very big part of this. The last time the Big Ten issue came up a vote was taken and the faculty and admin was very much against the move to the Big Ten. The reason is Notre Dame’s teaching emphasis on undergrad education, more like a smaller liberal arts college, and of course Notre Dame’s Catholicism, which is obviously a huge difference in character from all the huge Big Ten land grant public research universities, and even Northwestern (with no religion factor). Notre Dame’s essential character is much closer to that of the Ivies than the huge universities like Michigan St, Ohio St, Minnesota and Wisconsin.”</p>

<p>You are also overplaying the prestige of ND academically. ND is not a member of the AAU. It would become the only member of the B10 who was not a member of the AAU. All of those other “land grant” universities you mentioned are, as well as almost all of the schools in the ivy league that you like to compare ND to.</p>

109

<p>Notre Dame is higher ranked academically than every school in the Big Ten other than Northwestern. Notre Dame does not need the Big Ten to enhance its academic credibility nits, no matter what organizations it is or is not a member of. What a silly statement.</p>

110

<p>“Plus, Notre Dame is higher rated than every Big Ten school except Northwestern, so its not like ND needs the Big Ten for its academic rep”</p>

<p>The PA of Michigan, Wisconsin, and Illinois is higher than ND. Nice try.</p>

111

<p>Shanka, you need to tone it down a little. Chicago never left the Big 10’s academic arm, it simply ceased competing in Division I sports.</p>

<p>[CIC</a> Home Page](<a href=“http://www.cic.net/Home.aspx]CIC”>http://www.cic.net/Home.aspx)</p>

<p>For academic purposes, Chicago is very much an active member of the Big 10.</p>

<p>As for academic rating of undergraduate institutions, Notre Dame, Northwestern, Chicago and Michigan are generally ranked within 15 spots of each other, making them virtually equal in a pool of over 1,000 universities. None of those schools can claim to be better than the others for undergraduate education. </p>

<p>Here are some links that proves that the Faculty Senate at Notre Dame voted almost unanimously in favor of joining the Big 10 (including Chicago since they were thinking purely about academic matters) back in 1999:</p>

<p>[Should</a> Notre Dame join Big Ten? - College Football - College Basketball - Rumors - FanNation](<a href=“http://www.fannation.com/truth_and_rumors/view/129191]Should”>http://www.fannation.com/truth_and_rumors/view/129191)</p>

<p>[url=<a href=“http://en.allexperts.com/e/b/bi/big_ten_conference.htm]Big”>http://en.allexperts.com/e/b/bi/big_ten_conference.htm]Big</a> Ten Conference at AllExperts<a href=“scroll%20down%20and%20read%20the%20%22History%22%20section”>/url</a></p>

<p>[url=<a href=“Big Ten Expansion: A Realistic Look | News, Scores, Highlights, Stats, and Rumors | Bleacher Report”>Big Ten Expansion: A Realistic Look | News, Scores, Highlights, Stats, and Rumors | Bleacher Report]Big</a> Ten Expansion: A Realistic Look | Bleacher Report<a href=“scroll%20down%20to%20the%20%22Notre%20Dame%22%20section”>/url</a></p>

112

<p>“The PA of Michigan, Wisconsin, and Illinois is higher than ND. Nice try.”</p>

<p>absolutely wrong. Prove it. Notre Dame is a much more selective school, with much lower acceptance rates. Keep going with your moronic statements. State schools have to accept a certain percentage of instate students. There is no way their undergrad student profiles will be higher for the simple reason that they are public institutions. By the way, I got accepted by Michigan (out of state), Illinois (out of state) and Notre Dame. I went to Notre Dame for one simple reason—it was the highest rated school academically.</p>

113

<p>The University of Chicago is NOT a member of the Big Ten. It does not compete in the Big Ten. They are not part of this Big Ten equation or debate. They don’t share in the Big Ten athletic revenues. Their loose affiliation with one academic arm is meaningless for the purposes of this discussion. Their now former ancient membership over 60 years ago is meaningless for the purposes of this present Big Ten expansion move. Stop with your silliness.</p>

114

<p>rjkofnovi stated: “The PA of Michigan, Wisconsin, and Illinois is higher than ND. Nice try.”</p>

<p>Shankkapotamus replied: “absolutely wrong. Prove it.” </p>

<p>OK:</p>

<p>USNWR PA Rating , Private National University</p>

<p>4.9 , Harvard
4.9 , Princeton
4.9 , MIT
4.9 , Stanford
4.8 , Yale
4.7 , TOP PUBLIC-UC Berkeley)
4.6 , Caltech
4.6 , Columbia
4.6 , U Chicago
4.5 , U Penn
4.5 , Johns Hopkins
4.5 , Cornell
4.4 , Duke
4.4 , Brown
4.3 , Dartmouth
4.3 , Northwestern
4.2 , Carnegie Mellon
4.1 , Wash U
4.0 , Emory
4.0 , Rice
4.0 , Vanderbilt
4.0 , Georgetown
3.9 , USC
3.8 , Notre Dame</p>

<p>USNWR PA Rating , State University</p>

<p>4.7 , UC BERKELEY
4.4 , U MICHIGAN
4.3 , U VIRGINIA
4.2 , UCLA
4.1 , U N CAROLINA
4.1 , U WISCONSIN
4.0 , GEORGIA TECH
4.0 , U ILLINOIS</p>

115

<p>Shanka, you can believe what you want, but the fact is, Notre Dame’s faculty was overwhelmingly in favor of Notre Dame joining the Big 10, not because of the athletic aspect of the conference, but because it wanted to have access to the academic collaboration that takes place in the conference…and that includes the University of Chicago, which is as active an academic member as any other Big 10 university.</p>

116

<p>US News national university rankings:</p>

<ol>
<li>Notre Dame</li>
<li>Michigan</li>
<li>Illinois</li>
<li>Wisconsin</li>
</ol>

<p>Acceptance rate:
Notre Dame 27%
Michigan 42%
Illinois 69%
Wisconsin 53%</p>

<p>Selectivity rating Princeton Review (2009)
Notre Dame 98
Michigan 96
Illinois 89
Wisconsin 94</p>

<p>ACT range middle 50:
Notre Dame 31-34
Michigan 27-31
Wisconsin 26-30
Illinois 26-31</p>

<p>Academic rating (Princeton)
Notre Dame 92
Michigan 83
Illinois 74
Wisconsin 80</p>

<p>I’ll stop the bleeding here. The schools are hardly even close in academic profile, selectivity, student profiles etc</p>

117

<p>I guess I was wrong on the faculty vote. I must have been thinking of some other vote or poll, but the fact remains that ND does not have much in common academically with the huge Big Ten research universities other than Northwestern.</p>

118

<p>Shanka, according to the 2010 Princeton review, Michigan’s selectivity rating was 99. But the PR is a joke. Have you seen how many colleges have higher ratings than Johns Hopkins (86), Penn (87), Cornell (88), Northwestern (88), Caltech (88)? I am not going to name any, but suffice it to say, the PR academic rating is laughable.</p>

<p>And if you hnonestly think there is a difference between #20 and #27, then you must also believe that there is a difference between #13 and #20. Do you concede that #12 Northwestern is better than Notre Dame?</p>

119

<p>Shank- even if the Big East implodes for football there are 8 catholic schools left to play basketball. You could easily add Xaiver and Dayton and have a fully functioning league for all sports but football.</p>

120

<p>Notre Dame if anything is UNDERRANKED by US News for many reasons which I have posted many times, among them being US News is heavily weighted to graduate research universities, and the fact that faculty peer reviews will tend to be negative to a faith based school like Notre Dame. Despite those constraints, it is still ranked btw 15-20 by US News from year to year. I concede that ND and Michigan are very close, but with ND having a smaller student body and the emphasis on undergrad teaching, is a better school, with better students than Michigan (and I almost went to Michigan). Michigan’s rep is based in large part on their graduate schools. I concede that Northwestern is probably a slightly better academic school, but the difference btw ND and Northwestern is much smaller and less significant than the difference btw ND and Michigan. Again, Northwestern benefits from its more famous grad rep, and it also is rated higher because it is not faith based like ND is. There are certain people in academia who will NEVER vote ND high because its a Catholic school----that’s just a fact. That includes a lot of Jewish and Asian and Protestant professors and academicians. The point is ND is much closer in character to Northwestern than it is to Michigan in most areas. That serves to amplify my prior points about how it fits with the Big Ten.</p>