<p>Let's put it this way: a $500 check is on its way to a nice school in Pittsburgh.</p>
<p>Too bad honesty and integrity are minimized. You can never really know, but if the applicant volunteered in a leadership role, maybe it would have made a difference. I guess it just goes to show that perhaps some colleges don't value <em>all</em> kinds of diversity as much as they say...really, most ivy applicants and parents are tying to figure out how to play the game to present the perfect package (academic and creative genius, always a leader who still has time to volunteer a bazillion hours, be passionate about ec's, have a hook, fantastic interview, and w/e else). And because of this, probably lots of applicants look pretty much alike on paper. I believe in "fit", but I think many are trying to make the student fit the school rather than the school fit the student. </p>
<p>I don't know if I would take this particular kid or not, but I would respect the fact that he wasn't afraid to be himself and not follow the herd.</p>
<p>"One child at my son's high school decided he simply could not in good conscience be coerced into performing volunteer work when he had no heart-felt interest, simply to get into college. He does, however, enjoy writing Wikipedia articles about estoteric subjects in his spare time and is a top student with Ivy stats. Personally, if I were an admissions counselor, I would have taken him for his individuality and integrity. Want to venture a guess on how many Ivy rejections he got?"</p>
<p>I'm guessing that he didn't get into any. Why? To me, he sounds like a wonderful fit for a top lac. From what I can figure out, the top LACs put more emphasis on students intellectual and research abilities than do the Ivies because I am fairly sure that the top LACs have a higher proportion of their graduates who go on to get doctorates. What you describe is a student who seems to have the type of passion for research that leads to stellar careers as university professors. Producing such professors isn't the top mission of places like Ivies.</p>
<p>What you described was a young man who seems very bright and to have a passion about doing intellectual research. What he seems to lack is that interest in also working directly with other people -- the kind of interest that would have been demonstrated if he had, for example, gotten involved in professional organizations dedicated to his interests or if he had developed a relationship with a local professor and managed to be co-author of a journal article.</p>
<p>The Ivies want students who not only are bright and intellectually inclined, but also will add to the campus or community life by pursuing some of their interests in concert with others. There are fine colleges that would welcome with open arms the intellectual who spends their time holed alone in their rooms writing for Wikipedia, but Ivies are probably not among them. </p>
<p>Now if as part of his passion for Wikipedia, the student had managed to establish a relationship with the founders or to get a position on a Wikepedia advisory board or something similar -- and had documented that in his essay or with a recommendation-- I think he would have had a decent shot at an Ivy admission.</p>
<p>Well, I can't speak on the difficulties of obtaining leadership positions at other public schools, but I do know that becoming Vice Pres. at my own high school was no easy feat. It took many nights of strategizing, sign/ sticker making, multiple debates and a strong hold on the student body. The same goes with becoming National Honor Society pres. and captain of the dance/track team. None of it was easy and it ****es me off to know that other people are holding the same titles as I, while doing half the work. I know that these ECs are a somewhat important part of the college app., but at the same time the expierence that I got from being a leader was much more important to me than the title itself, so in some ways i feel bad for these kids who are padding the leadership portions of their apps. they're missing the whole point of the exercise. Anyway, I'm sure that my ECs had some effect on the schools that I got into but as far as the Ivys go, I was rejected by one, wait listed by another, and accepted by a third. It just goes to show you that the whole process is a gamble and blaming acceptance or rejection on one aspect of some "formula" derived by overly concerned parents is just a waste of time and kind of stupid.</p>
<p>I know a similar situation in a nearby school. In the sports team in the school I'm talking about, all the seniors are "captains", even when there's like ten seniors. I'm not sure if the coach made that for application purposes, tho.</p>
<p>I've been following this thread with interest because my daughter's experience with high school honors and leadership positions was so incredibly poor. </p>
<p>I posted earlier about my daughter being cut from a varsity sport her senior year and how she turned it into a positive college essay. Well, the sports team cut was just a beginning of a difficult year. Scheduling problems percluded her playing for top level band. She wasn't invited into NHS. Nor did she receive school academic honors. </p>
<p>It got to the point where I began to question whether she was the bright, engaging child I thought she was -- I mean every parent thinks their child is wonderful -- but was I wrong? And the answer is of course I wasn't wrong. D's school was one of the type with multiple valdictorians and that also honored the same students over and over. From my view as a parent, some of the much lauded students deserved their honors and some were resume builders with a reputation for playing the game.</p>
<p>Any way, as the school managed to overlook, at least from my POV, my daughter, she moved from disappointment to laughter at each new instance. I do, however, wonder what happens to students without the family support. I felt D could have easily fell into anorexia or depression without someone at home saying "these things happen -- you're blessed if this is the worst life hands you."</p>
<p>And while the high school overlooked my daughter, she applied to and was accepted by four selective colleges. (OK, she had good grades and test scores, and was active in non-school EC.) Things tend to work out. And that difficult senior year made for a very mature college freshman.</p>
<p>Just as an addendum to my previous post, here is an example of how bogus some high school leadership positions are.</p>
<p>D is a lovely writer. Worked on school literary magazine, member of creative writing club, spent hours each week on personal writing projects. When elections were held for officers for school honorary literary society, a group of big name jocks decide it would be funny to submit their names. Other names submitted were the school literary types, including my daughter. Who ended up as officers of this club? None of the known literary types. Who ended up doing yeoman's work? Well it wasn't the officers.</p>
<p>A couple words on what I've read about writing and fraud:</p>
<p>I agree that it's atrocious how many students have essays that were clearly written by parents. I saw one student touting his acceptance to an Ivy with a word misused so completely and blatantly that I was shocked. Maybe this was just an odd incident, but it makes one suspicious. However, I don't think that the SAT writing section is entirely valuable. I'm biased, myself. I've been a writer my whole life. I love writing essays in particular, as well as helping teach others to improve their writing. I read avidly and so have a very good feel for how to write effectively. I have been honored many times for my writing, and I think I got into Princeton and several great LACs based largely on my essays. I never let anyone do more with my essays than point out flaws. I wrote every word of each one myself. I labored over them; I took pride in them. My SAT essay was scored a 9. Not a terrible score, but a 9 of 12 is hardly that good. Some people, like myself, are slow writers who prefer to think over their work as they work. I cannot write as quickly as some, but that does not make me a worse writer. I would hate for students like me to be penalized in the future for this quality.</p>
<p>Marlene, congratulations on your daughter. My D, too, has what I like to call "stealth potential." We live in a rural-ish town of 50,000 or so, and at our neighborhood schools, the kids in her grade included the son of the deputy superintendant of schools, the granddaughter of the school board president, and the children of several teachers. I was a working single mom whose income was less than a third the area median.</p>
<p>At her local elementary school, it took me 3 years to get them to agree to screen her for gifted classes, despite 99th percentile Iowa tests. Despite making all As through 8th grade, she never won any academic or leadership awards, except for the 6th grade home ec prize (which she was delighted to get). By the middle of 10th grade, she was convinced all she could do with her life was teach English, because she wasn't good at anything else. (Not that there is anything wrong with teaching English, but no one should do it because they feel they have no other option). She still had won no awards (other than outside certificates for doing well on the ACT in 7th and 10th grade) and was even turned down for Beta Club.</p>
<p>Our district at that time didn't weight GPAs, so many of the kids with connections took honors classes even if they qualified for gifted. When the high school had a new gifted Algebra II teacher who was a tough grader, those kids scurried mid-semester to honors Algebra, got their As, and ended up with higher class rank than D, who got the highest possible B in the tougher course. </p>
<p>By the middle of 10th grade, she decided that if she stayed where she was, she had no chance to find out if she had any potential for math and science, much less get into any college more selective than LSU. At age 15, she made the very difficult decision to move 300 miles away from friends and family to live in a dilapidated dorm and attend our state's math and science high school. (This was despite being advised by her gc and others that she wouldn't be happy or successful at the more rigorous school).</p>
<p>To make a long story short, in less than two years, D. ended up an Intel Science Talent Search finalist, a hard-working officer in a couple clubs (including Beta), and a member of the school's honor court (an academic integrity tribunal selected by the faculty and students). She's going off to Stanford next year with no regrets.</p>
<p>The kids at our neighborhood school who were selected for awards and clubs that D. didn't get? Most of them are very sweet, capable children, and I wish them all well. But in the long run, though I wish her road could have been easier, I think D. will be better off for having to work a little harder for the things she got.</p>
<p>Marlene, you mention in this literary magazine club, the yeoman's work was done by kids like your D, but not the elected officers. I truly do not believe the title is what the colleges are looking for. It is the accomplishments...the signficant contributions and achievements. I wrote somewhere on this thread how my D was not an elected officer of the Student Senate (though ran for one but it was only based on popularity...not speeches or anything like that). Despite that, she was on the Senate, just not an officer. One year, she was't even elected as a senator, but chose to participate at every meeting anyway. During that time, she created and founded a committee, an initiative she led. Only three kids were involved over a two year period on this initiative to create a new school policy and eventually it was ONLY my D the second year of it. Her policy went on to be adopted by the school board. She created another committee and developed a second policy she was working through the system on and she led that initiative. It did not matter if she had an elected title. It didn't even matter if she was an actual Senator. She documented the initiatives she founded and led on her resume, even mentioning she did them though not even elected as a Senator one year but participated anyway and then created these committees she led. Her rec writers even commented that they had never seen a kid create a school policy and leave a lasting impact on the school like she had done....as opposed to just being an officer who accomplished nothing. While this was not my D's main EC activity, I bring it up as an example that the title is not what they are looking for but more the initiative, drive, and achievement. You can lead without being chosen for a title or an award. </p>
<p>Susan</p>
<p>Conyat - that's an inspirational story. Kudos to your daughter! My daughter had the misfortune to move to a pretty small town in her sophmore year. She was a social nobody and of course didn't get elected to anything. She had the similar problem of being the only one to show up at every outing of the service organization while the president and VP never showed up. But the teacher in charge knew who was at the soup kitchen at 9 AM Saturday and recommended her to be in charge of a new service organization. You expect kids to be cliquey but the administration should be above all that.</p>
<p>Conyat, I think your daughter's story illustrates what true leadership is and what the colleges are looking for.</p>
<p>Getting elected Senior Class President may or may not be the mark as a leader. At many high schools, student elections are little more than popularity contests, and student officers hold little responsibility, and of course the colleges know this. So in a sense, a long list of offices held in high school on-campus organizations is the mark of very strong follower, not a leader -- that is, it shows someone who does very well with what the school gives her. The elite schools don't look down on that-- it at least shows that the student is an active participant -- but they aren't particularly impressed either. They also know that students run for or volunteer for these sort of positions specifically with the aim of bolstering their resumes. </p>
<p>What your daughter did was to take a big risk in the pursuit of an opportunity. She risked being lonely, unhappy, and overwhelmed -- she risked sacrificing an A average at an easy school to attend a school which could have proved too challenging for her to manage much better than C's. And then she excelled within that context. </p>
<p>You can't fake that kind of stuff.</p>
<p>Conyat, and others, your stories are truly inspirational. As a teacher in a public high school, and as a parent of a high school senior, I have seen both sides of it. I have encouraged my daughter to be involved in many different activities, and she has been involved in sports, community service, academic honor societies, employment. I did not write her essays(wouldn't have even if she asked) and that probably hurt her, as writing is not her best area. </p>
<p>Yet, I have students who filled out their activity sheets and put for example, four years as a member of xxx club, even though they were not. Justification~as said to me, " oh, they'll never know!" Same as another poster said about athletics--even though my daughter played 3 varsity sports, she was not a captain, hence, that did not go on the activity sheet. Yet others apparently are. </p>
<p>I know this year was an exceptionally talented class, yet each year the bar is raised one notch higher. How do our students keep up? They are tutored to the max, involved in some, or many activities, and take the most AP or IB classes they can, yet still some ar waitlisted or rejected from top schools. Some feel pressured to lie on their activity sheets to keep them competitive.</p>
<p>I personally find that a sad reflection on not only our society, but perhaps on our parenting skills as well. How can any parent sanction lying on an application to get into a particular school? Doesn't that make the admittance a bit less unanimous?</p>
<p>I think extra activity and community service are so overrated. Most students do it just for the college application. My s is a sophomore in a high school. Juniors and Seniors create all kind of clubs where they are the leaders. They recruit the underclass students to do the job while they take all the credits. I am so sick of it.</p>
<p>This all seems like a major flaw in the college system. Perhaps those colleges that actually "see through this" and end up choosing really good students, will eventually pull in these best students, who will go on to become rich or famous.</p>
<p>Could this be the downfall of the Ivy Leagues, replaced by the up-and-coming schools like USC?</p>
<p>Okay, there's some prejudice there, but I think it's a valid point.</p>
<p>Interesting thought, jakintosh. Certainly the Ivies are looking for the "best and the brightest." I think they do a good job of admitting the brightest, but they may miss the mark occasionally on who's truly the "best," not just who can play the game the best.</p>
<p>So, guys, judging from results in your high school, did the Ivies actually choose who most deserved to be selected in your opinion?</p>
<p>sandra61 wrote:</p>
<p>
[quote]
At my daughters school community service can be bought. The CS clubs at her school have a required service component, that is mostly ignored by the students who just want something to put on their resume. The advisors have thrown up their hands and now allow students (ahem, parents) to donate cash to various charities, and give them the equivalent number of hours at minimum wage. So if mom and dad want to give a couple hundred bucks, the kid gets 30 or so hours. This practice has extended itself to at least one nationally known service organization within our town, that I know of. After all, they'd probably rather have the money than have to keep a reluctant teen busy.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I have nothing to add, really. But I do have to say I'm flabbergasted. What's next, selling good recommendations and grades?</p>
<p>Depends on what you mean by "best". Certainly, some academically best students were admitted. But also some best athletes. And some who were best at stacking up marginally valuable ec's. Some were best at networking with teachers and GCs. It was generally felt that some students got automatic A's in classes because they were either athletes who didn't attend class, or because they did too many ec's to have time to do the homework, or just because teachers just expected some students to be A-students no matter how they actually performed.</p>
<p>Seeing some of the kids from our HS who were admitted to ivies actually made my son averse to applying to them.</p>
<p>There is so much grade inflation at many high schools today, particular private schools where parents are paying good money. When I see 60% of the kids making honor roll I really question why they are not stepping up the academics. If the kids are truly this intelligent, then step up the bar. My son is a top student at his school and is furious about the schmoozing, whining, extra time given on tests and quizzes for some students and (I love this) take-home tests. You aren't supposed to work with others, but it is amazing how some of the students suddenly get A's on these, and the top kids get B's. One would think the teacher would notice.</p>
<p>lkf725 's assessment sounds a lot like what goes on at my son's HS. I'd say the Ivies did take some of the academically best kids. But if you had gathered in a room the top 3% of the class and talked with them, without knowing who got what grades or SAT scores, I don't think half of those Ivy-accepted kids would have been the ones you'd have selected as most likely to succeed. Many lack maturity, poise, and charisma, for starters. I mean, you couldn't imagine any of them being a CEO someday or President of the United States. Others were pushed relentlessly by their parents and I suspect may lack staying power. Others have barely seen the outside of their bedroom for all the studying they've done.</p>