Bogus College Application Claims

Parents Forum
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<p>I don't put a lot of stock into high school "leadership" roles, community service, or school awards for that matter. Let me say first that there are many teens who do phenomenal things within the community, HOWEVER- </p>

<p>At my daughters school community service can be bought. The CS clubs at her school have a required service component, that is mostly ignored by the students who just want something to put on their resume. The advisors have thrown up their hands and now allow students (ahem, parents) to donate cash to various charities, and give them the equivalent number of hours at minimum wage. So if mom and dad want to give a couple hundred bucks, the kid gets 30 or so hours. This practice has extended itself to at least one nationally known service organization within our town, that I know of. After all, they'd probably rather have the money than have to keep a reluctant teen busy.</p>

<p>Most leadership positions in student government or clubs are totally devoid of any real time commitment- a 15 to 20 minute meeting once or twice a month. The total number of hours for an entire school year MAY get up to around 10 (I know this because my daughter participates)- that is, for the representatives who actually show up. Compare that to the kid that works 10 to 20 hours per week. But guess who the colleges are looking for- the stock boy or class president? </p>

<p>Only half the members of NHS attend meetings regularly and the few community service activities that NHS sponsors get a turnout of a handful of THE SAME people- this despite the fact that NHS has about 100 members. Nothing is done about it so the downward trend continues year after year. Yet putting "NHS" on the college resume sure does make you look good and no distinction can be made between the handful of hard workers (suckers?) and the freeloaders.</p>

<p>A friend of mine recently complained to the administration that her daughter wasn't positioned well to get into selective colleges because she had participated in just a couple ECs and her grades/scores weren't stellar. Lo and behold within a few months she was awarded a very prestigious character/leadership award. Even my friend was pleasantly surprised. </p>

<p>At the end of the year it is telling that there are never any duplications of awards, that is, a student getting recognized for, say, both Spanish and Math. A teacher friend of mine was told by the administration that the student she had selected as her student of the year had already been selected for another class, and was asked to select another student who hadn't received any recognition yet (to "spread the wealth" so to speak), even though she had selected who she thought was most deserving. </p>

<p>The coach of one of our teams was told to give a mediocre player more playing time because the parents had complained to the principal. Another coach got tired of the parental lobbying and administrative suggestions and finally did away with captains. </p>

<p>THE BEST college applications are the ones that REQUIRE the student to put down the dates, the exact time spent each week/month, the exactly what the student DID THEMSELVES- and then ask for a point of contact with a phone number. And look at the time spent and disregard the fancy titles and awards. I was disappointed that very few applications did that, and the most selective schools did not.</p>

<p>BTW, I do think those kids that got into the selective colleges deserve it in more ways than one. I just think that in the end, like another poster said, the SATs and grades are really the only truly reliable indicators. The rest can be manipulated too easily.</p>

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<p>My daughter's high school is serious about it's "honor society" clubs. Certain meetings are mandatory. You want to put that down on your college app? You better be at the mandatory meetings unless you are sick or a first-degree relative just died. So, when a mandatory activity was scheduled for the same Saturday as an important athletic event, my daughter had to drop the honor society. She can't be in two places at once. So, in her little corner of the universe, it is not possible to "do everything." And I think this is really what is at the heart of everyone's frustration -- that life at High School A can be so different from life at High School B and all these many differences, big and small, are not known by the college admissions people and you are left with just doing your best with whatever options are available to you at the time and trying to make sure that the fact that you did that comes through in your application. But it all seems so capricious, and nobody likes that, especially with something as important as this.</p>

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<p>Colleges speak of "false claims" and etc., but I was wondering what the most common attempts to "pad" or "lie" were...</p>

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<p>From what I've seen on CC, it seems that many of the liars pad their community service hours, erroneously thinking that will impress colleges.</p>

<p>I have seen no evidence that putting down a lot of hours impresses top colleges and scholarship programs, which are far more interested in the impact of what one accomplished than the hours that one put in. </p>

<p>I have been on scholarship committees and have NOT been impressed by students who put down hundreds of hours of community service, but haven't had an impact and lack a recommendation letter documenting their impact. "She's such a nice kid. She comes regularly and is pleasant," is not going to get a kid into a top college or merit scholarship program.</p>

<p>Who cares if a student spent 1,000 hours volunteering at Red Cross if all they did was answer the phone and enter data? The people whom top colleges and merit scholarship programs want are the students who may start out answering the phone, but then spot other ways that they can be useful and consequently are assertive enough to start new programs or to create new ways of attracting volunteers or raising funds. Of course when students do things like that, its reflected in their recommendation letters, essays and interviews. </p>

<p>When asked, "What did you learn from that experience?" or "How did your volunteering make a difference?" they don't have a deer in the headlights look and reply something bland like "People are people" or "I answered the phone." </p>

<p>Impact, not padding, is what's important.</p>

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<p>Until I began reading CC almost four years ago, I had never heard of kids talking about "how many hours of community service" they had. On CC, I see kids list it all the time in their "stats". It is not what is talked about in my community. It is not a requirement for graduation at our school. NHS students do service but other than that, community service is just ONE kind of extracurricular involvement. It is not viewed as better than a sport, a performing art, a job, etc. And hours is not how one counts involvement. </p>

<p>I think colleges are looking for dedication to an area of interest that is over time and in a significant capacity. It does not matter so much WHAT the activity is but how the student was involved. Even when talking of community service, in an interview, I am going to ask a student what they have done to contribute to their school or community to make it a better place. An answer of how many hours of service in a hodge podge of community service events is not impressive at all. Even within the topic of community service, devotion to one project over time in a significant way that involved some initiative that resulted in an impact speaks way more than hours put in. As Northstarmom wrote, recs, interviews and essays are going to all be on a similar vein. A resume listing hours at this service thing or that and this club or that don't really make a reader take notice. Also, sometimes a service activity is related to another extracurricular a kid is involved with so there is a theme or interest going. Examples, my kid is a soccer player but coached youth soccer, as well as refereed youth games. My other kid is in performing arts and organized events with performers to impact the community on issues of peace and activism that benefitted Amnesty International. She sang in nursing homes. These were endeavors that they just WANTED to do and never even thought of the college apps when they did them. They weren't even seniors when they did it. I'm now just reflecting back on it. I interviewed a girl this year who is a violist and besides being in the state orchestra, she also gave lessons to kids and she also volunteered at a violin store and learned to be a luthier. Sometimes kids' jobs or service things relate to their other areas of passion. Some kids I interview have these misc. service activities...a day here, a day there unrelated to anything or just stuff that "had to do" and this club and that but nothing they really did or accomplished relating to those areas. Passion didn't come through. I know lots of kids with very commited ECs where there just is not time for community service and that is FINE. They are engaged in other things in depth. The WHAT you do is not so important but it is how you do it and why you do it and the depth involved in doing it, along with demonstrated interest....enough to even want to continue contributing to campus life in college in these areas. Even some more minor things my kid did in HS...like assistant teaching at the elementary school in math and French...have carried over into college (and this was not her main EC by far) but she now volunteers once/week at an elem. school in the city where her college is located and she is going to be teaching in a program this summer for kids in France. And she held a job with kids in the summer before college. Obviously her assistanting in elem school as a senior in HS wasn't to get into college but she genuinely loved doing it and is continuing with that sort of thing, on top of her sports and other interests outside of academics. As an interviewer and as a college counselor, I can tell the difference between applicants where that interest is there vs. doing things to get into college or even padding or lying about this stuff. Kids with passions do things because they WANT to and don't want to give up those interests once they get to college.</p>

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<p>I realize the point you are trying to make that it doesn't help to exaggerate one's community service hours. Somehow, though it struck me as kind of awkward and I'm probably just misunderstanding:</p>

<p>
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Who cares if a student spent 1,000 hours volunteering at Red Cross if all they did was answer the phone and enter data?

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</p>

<p>I beg to differ. I bet the Red Cross cares. I bet that student who put in <insert large="" number="" of="" hours="" here=""> cares. And most important, I bet whomever benefits from every Red Cross effort/service damn well cares. I bet the Red Cross cares a hell of a lot more about a significant effort. The committed volunteer has got to be a far better alternative than the snot nosed, self-entitled punk that always has "a better idea", yet doesn't contribute a whit other than to disruptively run around suggesting they know better how to do this and that, doncha think? </insert></p>

<p>You say that you'd rather see someone come up with "big ideas" and "make an impact". Lets face it, all this stuff mostly comes down to presentation in the end. There will always be the born-salesman types who can and will convince you one way or another that they made a huge impact when in fact they did nothing and were either connected through parents, friends, etc... to get a stellar recommendation or they are just flat out lying about their achievements or taking credit for someone elses. They just have the capacity/audacity to tell bigger lies, that's all. Perhaps that is also just the difference, though.</p>

<p>Understand that I'm talking about volunteer/community service here, unlike athletics where there are usually objective measures of achievement.</p>

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<p>As the parent of a couple of kids who didn't do community service, I have no ax to grind on that score, but I have to say that the value of 1000 hours manning the phone and entering data at the Red Cross is tremendous. </p>

<p>But remember, we're talking about Ivy and Ivy-like schools here (whether people want to admit it or not--because the vast majority of schools cannot afford to be so picky as to turn their noses up at hordes of 4.0+/2200+ students with 1000 hours of cs), and they have positioned themselves as the training grounds for future movers and shakers. So, yeah, they want the people with the "big ideas."</p>

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<p>"I beg to differ. I bet the Red Cross cares. "</p>

<p>Of course, the Red Cross cares and would be grateful to have a volunteer who showed up on time and did their work responsibly. Most colleges in the country would care, too because such a student would stand out among their many applicants whose ECs are nonexistant or very skimpy (such as being a club member who showed up only a couple of times).</p>

<p>However, if the student was doing those hours only to impress adcoms at top colleges, the adcoms won't care. A student who does nothing more than pile on community service hours isn't going to stand out in the pool.</p>

<p>If answering phones and filing papers are all that the student accomplished in 1,000 hours of service, places like HPYS won't view the student as the type of person who on campus and after graduation would be able to implement programs and ideas to improve the world. </p>

<p>Places like HPYS see themselves as training grounds for future leaders (including leaders in community service), not holding pens for people who simply do exactly what they are told.</p>

<p>"The committed volunteer has got to be a far better alternative than the snot nosed, self-entitled punk that always has "a better idea", yet doesn't contribute a whit other than to disruptively run around suggesting they know better how to do this and that, doncha think?"</p>

<p>No one is suggesting that type of person is wonderful. I was strongly suggesting that a person who starts out volunteering and answering the phones and in the process notices some unmet needs and then does the thoughtful thinking, networking and work to address those needs -- that's the type of person that top colleges want.</p>

<p>Someone who mindlessly answers the phone for 1,000 hours may have provided a service, but they haven't used that experience to help the organization in other ways. Schools like HPYS want students who are not only able and willing to do the grunt work, but who also will give added value by working hard to solve problems that otherwise wouldn't be addressed.</p>

<p>The people who do things like that aren't around telling lies about it. Such lies would be easily found out because what would the people say except, "I was great! I was terrific!"</p>

<p>A person, who has truly had the kind of impact that I am describing would be able to say, for instance, "In working as a volunteer making solicitation calls for the Red Cross, I noticed that a lot of people were particularly interested in our programs to help school children who lost learning materials in the hurricane. As a result, I got my NHS chapter to do a fund raising project that raised $3,000, which we contributed to help a a school in Mississippi could restock its library."</p>

<p>And the student's words would be backed up during the interview by specifics about what the student did to convince the NHS members to adopt the project, and how they selected the school, etc. The student's work on the project also would be mentioned in recommendation letters from the Red Cross and the NHS advisor. They wouldn't just write something like, "She's a nice person who shows up on time."</p>

<p>Incidentally, one can identify the students whose parents actually did the work on their "impressive" projects. The students aren't able to provide telling details such as how they convinced NHS to adopt the project or what was most difficult about the endeavor. They also tend to answer in cliches such as answering a question about what they learned by saying, "It feels good to help others."</p>

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<p>The point I'm trying to make (other than you shouldn't dismiss anyone dedicated to volunteer service by referring to their efforts as mindless!!!) is that kids smart enough to be in the running for Ivy league and equivalent schools are certainly smart enough to lie to you on a different level. Sure some may not be and you'll immediately dismiss them. Others won't be so silly as to not have the answers ahead of time. Call it "executive level lying/manipulation" if you wish. Understand?</p>

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<p>Here's the thing: The strong applicant has done SOMETHING that is interesting/intriguing/ or whatever. It doesn't matter whether it is slotted as "community service" or "leadership" -- it matters that the student comes across as committed & involved. (i.e., has a "passion" or two). </p>

<p>Curmudgeon's daughter raised goats. That's not all she did - she's also a talented athlete. But I'll bet that the goats did more to attract the attention of the Yale ad com than all of the community service hours she might have listed. </p>

<p>Not because the community service hours don't matter... but because they are not special. They aren't special because so many kids do community service -- many, like my son, come from high schools where it is required in any case -- and most of the kids who do community service pretty much do the same type of things. So unless it is either a very imaginative/unusual form of community service -- or the student had a special role -- for someone reading through thousands of applications, it all has the ho-hum ring of familiariity. </p>

<p>If you asked me, I would advise a student wanting an elite college to follow their interests and passions and move beyond the gates of their high school, into their local community or beyond -- and get a life. The problem with all the high school clubs & activities is that they are, well, high school. The kid who is a yearbook editor isn't going to impress as much as the kid who writes a column for the city newspaper, even though the yearbook job may be a lot harder than writing a handful of columns -- its just that are bound to be a lot more yearbook editors applying to the colleges. </p>

<p>But even in this example, if the kid set out to do x, y & z to impress the colleges it will never work. After my son was out of college, he got a job that he really got enthused about, and whenever I would see him if the conversation got around to his work, his eyes would light up and his voice would take on a tone of earnesty and I know that my son really, really cared about that stuff. I am sure that everyone who has ever done a college interview can see when that happens with a kid. </p>

<p>So if a kid really is spending 1,000 hours working with the Red Cross -- and cares -- it is going to come through loud and clear. If it is a true passion, this will end up being all the kid talks about, and every teacher and the school counselor will know about it -- because the kid regularly hits them all up for donations to this cause that she treats as if it the world's most urgent calling. And that will be fine: no one is going to say, "so what" - or fault the kid because she hasn't yet been appointed to be the Director of the Red Cross. </p>

<p>You can't just can't fake it. When kids fake their EC's and get in, most likely it is in spite of the list, not because of it. I am sure the Ivies see all sorts bright kids with top grades and test scores who seem to have exaggerated their accomplishments, and the ad com sees the list for what it is, but lets the kid in anyway becase the academic record was strong. When there is more than one kid applying from the same school, I'll bet that the guidance counselor's rec becomes the most important thing: its not what kid has accomplished the most, but which ones the g.c. and teachers seem to be pushing hardest for. And again.. that's hard to fake. </p>

<p>Sure, every once in awhile someone skates by.... but that is not how the vast majority of kids win admission to Ivies every year. Most of them are the genuine article.</p>

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<p>Eng_dude, anything is possible, and I am sure that some lying students manage to get in. However, I don't that the large numbers of liars get in that many people here imagine is the case.</p>

<p>There really are many students who are able to do very impressive, self-directed ECs with high impact while also having high scores and grades. On the whole, those are the type of students who end up at a place like Harvard. </p>

<p>The only way that Harvard could have its many very active student organizations (that also lack faculty advisors) is that it accepts a lot of very energetic, responsible, students with a passion about following through with their ideas.</p>

<p>Because Harvard, for example, uses alum to interview, that also means that there's a chance that the interviewers may be informed enough about the community to be able to recognize it when students are lying. </p>

<p>For instance, one student whom I interviewed lied and said that they were heavily involved in an organization that they didn't realize I was a regular volunteer with and that my son (whom they had previously said they had never encountered) was a top officer of.</p>

<p>The flip side is that I've interviewed students who had modest sounding leadership positions that when I asked them about what they did, ended up having major responsibilities that they could describe with lots of specifics. What particularly was interesting was that such students tended not to realize how impressive what they were doing was. For instance, a student had a job like "equipment manager" for a student organization with over 100 members. The student had run for a higher office, had lost, and then had become equipment manager only because no one else would take the job, and she wanted to support the organization.</p>

<p>On her own, she had reorganized the system and had expanded the job to include mentoring of freshmen members. She was able to describe how and why she did such things. That's the example of the type of leadership that is very impressive even though the job itself was the type of hard work that's out of the limelight that many students crave.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
If answering phones and filing papers are all that the student accomplished in 1,000 hours of service, places like HPYS won't view the student as the type of person who on campus and after graduation would be able to implement programs and ideas to improve the world.

[/quote]

I think that's a little shortsighted of HPYS. Not every job needs to be big to be important; no person has to be a leader at everything. If everyone thought like this, we would end up with too many chiefs and not enough indians. Or, for a different analogy, how many sidewalk supervisors does one job need?</p>

<p>Aside from the fact that those who work in quiet anonymity often contribute the most, how about that diversity everyone is looking for? Surely elite colleges don't only need leaders, but also need people who know how to cooperate and follow... (or maybe not?)</p>

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<p>I totally understand and I do think that the overwhelming majority of kids are NOT lying. However, if they are bright enough to get outstanding grades and test scores, etc... they are certainly capable of fabrication/manipulating others when they need to stand out a bit. The more you get away with it, the more likely you are to repeat it later on because you got away with it before. There are plenty of historical examples. Cough, ENRON, cough...</p>

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<p>Realistically, elite schools want to have chiefs, not indians, as alumni. (That's not to say that an individual can't be both in different situations.)</p>

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<p>"Aside from the fact that those who work in quiet anonymity often contribute the most, how about that diversity everyone is looking for? Surely elite colleges don't only need leaders, but also need people who know how to cooperate and follow.."</p>

<p>Good leaders do know how to cooperate and follow. However, a person who spends 1,000 hours answering phones and doesn't have the interest, creativity, networking or organizational skills to use that experience to address some of their organization's unmet needs is not demonstrating the kind of leadership skills and vision that places like Harvard are looking for.</p>

<p>The type of person that places like Harvard is looking for would be able to do a good job of answering the phone, if that was what their official volunteer job was while also being inspired by what they heard on the phone to get start a fundraising program in their NHS chapter as I described in a previous post. </p>

<p>The type of person that places like Harvard is looking for would neither turn up their nose at doing grunt work nor restrict themselves to doing only what their bosses expected. They'd manage to do the grunt work while creatively providing assistance in other ways, too.</p>

<p>As for contributing in quiet anonymity, that's not exactly the type of student Harvard is looking for. It's not a place designed for people who'll happily do all of the work while staying in the background. There are, however, colleges that greatly value the people who contribute a lot to organizations while modestly staying in the background.</p>

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<p>LOL, eng_dude -- I spent 20 years as a trial lawyer, and you would be surprised at how quickly the lies of supposedly smart people start to unravel as soon as someone starts asking serious questions. The main reason people get away with lying is that no one challenges them. </p>

<p>It's not the answers that are given, it is the way they are presented. Some people who are pathological liars -- they habitually lie about everything - could probably pull it off, because they are used to making up things as they go along. But usually people like that would not have done very well in high school, because of course the people around them eventually get wise to the fact that they cannot be trusted. </p>

<p>Believe what you will -- I am sure it is comforting when you have a rejection letter to believe that other students got admitted by lying and cheating. But I think when it comes down to it, the reality is that the most selective colleges tend to overlook the lies on the applications they reject, but scrutinize very carefully the applicants they admit. They may or may not call to verify something, but they will be alert to facts that don't ring true, including students who claim to live in a world with 32 hour days.</p>

<p>They probably don't bother checking on hedge-factor items -- studies show that just about everyone exaggerates a little on the true facts in resume. No one is going to worry whether a student who says he has 100 hours of community service actually only had 96. But I also don't think they give all that stuff very great weight.</p>

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<p>I think some are emphasizing that colleges want leadership but as I was saying in an earlier post on the thread....they are not necessarily looking for leadership in these EC pursuits....they look for passion, commitment and achievement. Leadership is also a plus but achievements need not be in a leadership capacity. I think they are looking for kids with interests where they take those interests and run with them, accomplish things, are dedicated and excited about those endeavors, and so forth. Nobody needs to go out and fabricate this.....it is just how some are even if they weren't even ever going to apply to college. They do these things out of strong desire. It is not like they sit down and think....hmmm, what can I do that will look good for college....is there something I can lead? win? get "hours", etc. They just do things and look to do things out of strong interest and in many instances, those interests have been for YEARS before they even got to HS. And they'll continue doing things like this after they get to college. I recall a friend of mine asking me in my D's senior year, if my D was going to bother with ski team that winter since her apps were already in to college. I had no idea what she meant. I never would have thought of that. NO WAY would my D give it up. She LOVES it. She is doing it in college. In fact, at this moment she is on a plane across the country returning from doing it over her break and is now going to use her work earnings to go to a training camp in June. I couldn't get my kids to cut back on an activity if I tried (not that I want to). Yes, that activity took up 22 hours per week in winter in HS on top of several other heavy EC activities. Someone only puts in that kind of time, pushes themselves physically, gets up at 6:30 AM on weekends, cause they love it. There are "easier" things to do to "get into college." Nobody makes this stuff up. A coach writes a supplemental rec and a GC mentions how the student juggles all these things....it all paints a picture. Maybe some kids do lie but many kids do not NEED to lie on an app. I truly believe most adcoms can tell the difference.</p>

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<p>The kid who volunteers 1,000 hours answering phones for the Red Cross will have no problem getting a job. I would hire them in a heartbeat.</p>

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<p>Years ago, a significant community service activity on an application was more indicative of character and passion. Now that volunteerism is literally required by high schools (if not directly, indirectly through NHS) and is perceived as very necessary to gain admittance to college, its meaning as an indicator is diluted. Who would have done it anyway if college didn't exist, and who wouldn't have? Can you always tell? While you all make good points about what distinguishes the truly elite candidate from the fakers, nonetheless I can assure you that highly motivated, intelligent students know that the Ivies are looking for a sincere, sustained commitment. This point is made in their admissions presentations. So, ambitious kids do plan out their significant and sustained commitments designed to impress. One can only hope that in the process, a true passion will be ignited. If not, they will cease their involvement the minute they receive their acceptance letter. One child at my son's high school decided he simply could not in good conscience be coerced into performing volunteer work when he had no heart-felt interest, simply to get into college. He does, however, enjoy writing Wikipedia articles about estoteric subjects in his spare time and is a top student with Ivy stats. Personally, if I were an admissions counselor, I would have taken him for his individuality and integrity. Want to venture a guess on how many Ivy rejections he got?</p>

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<p>How many rejections, TheGFG?????</p>