<p>^ I mostly agree with your edits. The other presentation works fine for me, but it’s basically the same - another book summary.</p>
<p>This seems like a pretty clear statement to me (from paragraph 3 of the IHE article):
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<p>Indeed! This book is designed to open the door to additional discussions and not draw conclusions. Fwiw, this is why relying on the cherry-[icked “conclusions” presented in the “this” powerpoint quote above is futile. </p>
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<p>And what does that fact mean? Absolutely nothing as the consistency and validity of the exam is based on a … well-defined curriculum. Fwiw, isn’t such consistency expected from a program that has been widely criticized for “teaching to the test?” After all, the AP tests are standardized tests! Having consistent and valid exams does not magically make the curriculum relevant.</p>
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I concur to some extent. However, I think some information can be gleaned from a well-prepared summary. The IHE article carries a good deal more credibility in my mind.
Fortunately, Scott Jaschik of Inside Higher Ed continues:
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<p>Here are some examples of AP exam placement and credit at the University of California, Berkeley:</p>
<p>(Note: score of 3 or better for placement and credit unless otherwise specified)</p>
<p>Calculus AB: one semester of freshman calculus.
Calculus BC: one semester of freshman calculus; score of 5 counts for two semesters.
However, the [Math</a> department suggests that some students who scored 3 or 4 “start over” if they are not confident in the strength of their math background](<a href=“http://math.berkeley.edu/courses_AP.html]Math”>http://math.berkeley.edu/courses_AP.html).</p>
<p>English Language: score of 4 for first semester of writing requirement.
English Literature: score of 4 for first semester of writing requirement; score of 5 for both semesters of writing requirement (except for engineering majors).</p>
<p>Physics: no placement for physics majors, though enrollment in honors introductory courses is encouraged. Physics C may give some credit or placement for non-physics majors who would otherwise take the “light” introductory physics courses.</p>
<p>Chemistry: one semester of general chemistry for non-chemistry majors.</p>
<p>Computer Science A: none.
Computer Science AB: one semester of the (three semester) introductory computer science sequence.</p>
<p>Foreign languages: two semesters; score of 4 for three semesters. But final placement determination is made after classes start.</p>
<p>Economics: score of 4 on both micro and macro counts for the one semester introductory course.</p>
<p>History (any): none for history majors.</p>
<p>Statistics: None for statistics majors and others that require calculus based statistics. Some social studies majors accept non-calculus based statistics and accept a score of 4 on the AP exam.</p>
<p>It appears that many of the AP exams are considered somewhat less than the introductory course at the university level (e.g. counts for only one semester, or counts only for the “light” version of the course for non-majors, or does not count at all).</p>
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<p>So true! One of the great strengths of our IB program is that there are IB teachers, and there are regular teachers, and there is no overlap. Another huge factor in quality (at least for IB; I don’t know about AP) is the longevity of the program at the school. It takes years, as you noted, for teachers to get really proficient at running these kinds of programs. I’d go further than you do; I think a program doesn’t really hit its stride until year 8 to 10.</p>
<p>BTW, does the study address IB at all, or is it just AP?</p>
<p>For me, it doesn’t matter as much whether the kids who took AP classes were better prepared or not. At our public, the only challenging classes were AP classes which is why my kids took 7-12 each. I am sure that at some schools, honors and regular classes provide enough challenge for top students. Certainly, AP test results mattered little for college credit. D’s LAC does not accept them, and we never applied them at S’s flagship as he wanted to take full advantage of the college curriculum.</p>
<p>My understanding of AP tests is they are designed in cooperation with University professors to test what they would expect a University student to understand in their introductory courses. Yes it is “standardized” which seems to be a dirty word nowadays but it is no different than what they would see at an average University. Seems logical to conclude that a high score on an AP test would be a predictor for college.</p>
<p>One of my other favorite “progressive” attacks on testing is this notion expressed earlier that high AP scores result from students who do a better job of cramming facts in at the last minute. Our private school had some of those cramming sessions before the fact filled History AP tests and atleast at our atypical school the kids who got 5’s didn’t bother attending those sessions. They got 5’s because they were intellectually curious and they learned the stuff when it was being taught. The sessions were really designed to make sure that kids got atleast 3’s because the private school did not want to be embarrased with scores of 2 or 1. </p>
<p>The only conclusion that makes any since to me of this study is that way too many unqualified high school students are taking AP courses. I do think the College Board has been pushing this to make money which is a shame.</p>
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I have degrees in physics and engineering and don’t think I ever saw a single multiple choice question on an exam. And I think I never had a math course without proofs.</p>
<p>Anecdotally, and my reason for mistrust of the AP system -In 1874 I took and passed 4 AP exams, although my school only offered one AP course. I merely walked in and passed the exams (4s and above) based on high school coursework I passed AP Chem, but in absolutely no way was I prepared for advanced chemistry in college, although the university I attended would have allowed me to skip Freshman Chem. I might have veen able to muscle through, but fortunately I was aware of my limitations, and skeptical of the program a little even then.</p>
<p>I think many colleges place too much importance on the number of AP courses in the admissions process even though they are really variable in their rigor. Our high school emphasizes honors classes more than AP, and these classes are very rigorous with no grade inflation. When kids do take APs the overwhelming majority get 4s and 5s. However when examining rigor these kids are deemed to have a less rigorous schedule because of fewer APs, however these kids are very well prepared for college.</p>
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<p>Isn’t that a perfect description of the PROBLEMS created by a program that has spun out of control? Does it make sense to expect HS students to take 7 to 12 AP courses in a HS curriculum. We all know that AP (and in some cases) is considered the de facto most challenging curriculum, but should our HS offer THAT type of inch-deep and mile-wide instruction? The AP has become a collosal juggernaut based on the proposition that the course are college-level. Not only has this fact been repeatedly challenged by professors such as Sadler, but the question if this provides the best formative education for high school students remains largerly unanswered. As Sadler shared, TEACHERS think so, PROFESSORS … NOT! </p>
<p>Despite all the hoopla created by the AP, it is mostly a local US program. Most countries around the world pay little attention to it when designing their college preparation curriculum. As we know, the United States is performing at a level that is clearly sub-standard – a disgrace given the amount we spend and the resources available. This is particularly true in Math and Sciences, precise areas in which the AP is supposed to excel.</p>
<p>When it was stated, the AP represented a good and noble idea, but that time has passed. Its recent explosion and profound impact on the HS curriculum should be a cause for alarm. It is a program that has been oversold and has underdelivered. Families have been lulled in thinking they … absolutely need it for the chidren. Schools are measured on the number of AP that are offered. Teachers love it because it might bring additional income and the chance to teach in a school … within a school. The only problem is that such selective (and discriminatory) programs weaken the entire HS and do not really help the few that are supposed to benefit from them.</p>
<p>I agree that a college student should not be skipping a college class in their major, even if they had a 5 on their AP test. However, there are some entry level college courses that are really not necessary for some students and using their AP scores to skip those can be a real relief from boredom.</p>
<p>Having said that, my son obtained a 2 on the German AP test, but then, as a Freshman, placed into 3rd year German at his university and is getting A’s. He had a native speaker as a high school teacher and she taught what she thought was important. And, it turns out, that he had a clear advantage in college over the other students in his class, because of what she had emphasized. It was not, however, what the AP test had emphasized. </p>
<p>So, why do the authors of those AP tests think they have a corner on what our students need to know?</p>
<p>AP courses may represent AVERAGE COLLEGE courses, not those well above average, including most state flagship universities. They really help a lot of students get a decent HS course, regardless of where they go to HS. This is useful for many small HS’s all over- their teachers have a known standard to teach to. That is their value. Top colleges do not accept AP credits for good reasons, they are not meant to represent the finest college courses, but to give good HS students something more than they would otherwise get. My 5th year HS math class was similar to calculus- would have been nice if it had been the formal course. </p>
<p>The AP test authors know as much as any course professor about what they want the students to know. No course can cover everything. One reason many HS’s will not offer AP Biology, for example- they wish to cover different material at the same level. The choice of math topics and other courses is more straightforward.</p>
<p>Students will get more out of a rigorous college course than any HS AP course, but having AP courses helps out HS students in getting more rigorous courses than they otherwise would get. Much easier for a HS to have AP material to follow than to have to invent a course syllabus. Teachers have enough to do without having to reinvent the wheel curriculum wise…</p>
<p>ps- bovertine, you are really old to have taken AP courses in 1874, my HS didn’t even offer them in the early 1970’s… Seriously, I find the value of AP courses for the HS student. I, too, lament the AP credits given instead of a student at a good U taking the college level version.</p>
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<p>Inasmuch as there is a wide range of colleges in the country, AP courses are NOT average college courses. At best, they are at the level of introductory college courses. </p>
<p>The confusion might come from the very common obligation for many colleges and universities to offer remedial courses to college students who graduated from our typical high school students. </p>
<p>What a great system we have … high schools that pretend to be able to offer college level classes and colleges that have to actually repeat basic high school material.</p>
<p>I really question the value of AP courses after the experience at our high school, the test may be standardized, but the classes are not. Our school only offered four AP classes – Calculus, Bio, German/Spanish and APUSH. Every year a few kids did got 5’s in Calculus, a few more in Bio and Spanish, almost none in German and everybody got 5’s in APUSH. The kicker was that the History teacher didn’t teach anywhere near the recommended curriculum. He just taught US history. Two years ago, as an experiment, the school paid for all the kids in his classes to take the exam, whether it was APUSH or his regular unaccelerated history class. All the kids in his APUSH and over half the kids in his other classes got 5’s.</p>
<p>I have a feeling that some most selective colleges are not using AP’s (especially AP courses) to evaluate if a student is more qualified in terms of readiness for college work knowledge wise. They know the courses can be taught significantly differently in different high schools, and that’s why few accept credits for AP courses/exams taken in high school. Rather, by looking at how many AP’s one takes and how many 5’s one gets on AP exams while keeping a stella GPA (considering A’s are way too easy in some high schools), plus many extracurricular activities, the colleges get a better sense on how capable and motivated the inidividual is. Besides, when there are way way too many academically admissible candidates, AP is really just one additional differentiator rather than a deal maker or breaker.</p>
<p>Benley, I would agree that a major problem is the difference in the quality of teaching AP’s between private schools and many public school systems. At our one kids private school virtually all of the AP teachers were required to be AP graders. They were experienced teachers who had been teaching AP for many years. The county our public school kid is in only just recently realized that most teachers were not fully prepared to teach AP courses. They brought in College Board to review the system and are now making major changes. I believe one reason the school system brought in College Board is because our State is now not just looking at how many kids take AP courses-they are actually looking at their scores.</p>
<p>sm74, interestingly however, it is mostly the public high school students that tend to load up with AP courses and AP tests, and use them as a differentiator in college admission. Students from the established private schools, on the other hand, don’t rely on AP’s as much to show their academic ability. Some of these schools offer advanced courses beyond AP. And as far as I know, in order to achieve flexibility in teaching and/or as a cost cutting strategy some are steering away from AP’s altogether.</p>
<p>The problem with the current use and or interpretation of what the AP program was intended to be, can be attributed to our unrelenting need to please everyone (pc). In it’s original format it was a way for students that were obviously working on a higher level, to be “challenged” in their advanced subjects. Currently we have bastardized the AP program for various reasons. Whether it be to be more inclusive or to achieve some school board goal, the program has lost some of it’s luster.The reason that we are lagging behind other countries is that they understand that academics is no different than athletics. WE have no problem making distinctions in any sport as to who is qualified to participate, but when it comes to something as important as the education of our youth, we succumb to the pc pressure.</p>
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<p>No, it’s not, because I’m not sure if most public schools really have the capability to offer many courses comparable to AP classes. In my high school, before we offered AP US History, we did not offer a US History to anyone past 9th grade. And if you think that APUSH focuses too much on memorization, and that the DBQ’s are contrived, wait until you see this class - we didn’t write a single essay, we covered half the material that APUSH covers at half the depth. This class was much more memorization focused. And this was our only US History class before AP. The same is true for many of the other subjects at my school; we didn’t teach Calculus before we had AP Calculus, and the quality of the literature of our English classes were very poor before AP English. I’m sure the same is true for many other schools. Of course, this itself is a problem, but right now, AP seems to be the best solutions out there.</p>
<p>Shravas: At our public high school, 9th and 10th grade classes in foreign language, Math, English, and Social Studies were all designed to support students doing well in IB or AP exams later on – it was the challenging writing and lit analysis in 10th grade that got kids prepped for AP Lang & Comp, and the French teacher was pretty adamant that kids had to be really well grounded in grammar and reading short stories in French before taking on the AP exam. I doubt that many students who had poor preparation before the AP class would do very well.</p>