Branding of CAS and Engineering?

Colleges & Universities A-Z Cornell University
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<p>Is there potential value to an objective that brands CAS and Engineering in such a way as to promote a "hybrid" Cornell that does not dilute the larger and arguably more compelling story of Cornell status quo?</p>

<p>Is there a strategy[ies], when carefully executed over time, that provides appropriate content and value which would serve to place Cornell as the destination "C" in a new HYPMSC world order discussion...and if so, does the strategy reside in the message of the 2 schools, who when combined, seem to most closely resemble the HYPMS model?</p>

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<p>Are you asking whether there is a strategy of some sort that would place CAS along with Engineering in the upper upper elite strata of universities? And if so, do you mean in terms of changes in admissions policies that would pertain only to those two schools? Or marketing strategies? Or what? And another question would be whether CAS should be combined with Engineering in any new strategies.</p>

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<p>now my opinion</p>

<p>as an admissions officer said on another board, grad school committees are really not concerned w. the school ur in at Cornell. That probably a source of contention among Cornellians, b/c some think that Arts/Sci kids should get an edge over kids in the ag or ilr schools b/c simply it is more competitive admissions wise, primariloy measured through SAT scores. Therefore, perhaps, Cornell could do something similar to that of Columbia, which is to seperate the colleges in how they are reported.</p>

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<p>I don't know what you mean, simbajune, about Arts & Sciences kids "getting an edge," If you mean in terms of admittance to graduate school, I don't see why a graduate school,e.g., law school, would care about SAT scores from high school? They would want to see the LSAT, etc. And the grad schools would have the transcript of undergraduate courses taken and grades received, so I can't imagine why the difference in selectivity in undergraduate admissions in the various schools at Cornell would influence them. I could be wrong though.</p>

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<p>i'm going to side with odyssey. Why would law schools want to see SAT scores? When you apply to law school, would adcoms take into account the fact that one school at Cornell has a small SAT difference? Studies have shown that around 15% of the time, the SAT is a predictor for a student's first 6 months of college. Last time I checked, college is 4 years of grades that are taken into consideration for grad school. For law school, wouldn't LSAT scores matter? both ILR and CAS students are given an equal shot on the LSAT. If CAS students should worry more about their grades and preparing for the LSAT than thinking about how they should get an edge over their peers. </p>

<p>also, simbajune, you did say a little while back that admissions for schools like AAP, ILR, Ag are heavily reliant on important EC's for admission and that they put more emphasis on these than SAT's? you did. </p>

<p>"some think that Arts/Sci kids should get an edge over kids in the ag or ilr schools"</p>

<p>give me a break! YOU thought that, but you left the school.</p>

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<p>Odyssey,</p>

<p>IMHO, Cornell's story is a compelling one. It needs to be recast and retold though.</p>

<p>I believe there is a present opportunity to leverage the strong value propositions of the highly regarded CAS and Engineering colleges. There ought to be a way to more prominently position them than they are now. From there, the hope is that a rising tide lifts all boats.</p>

<p>Once the mind set of the strongest applicants is changed from Cornell as second choice, to Cornell on equal footing with HYPMS, the rankings will continue to rise. There is no reason why Cornell cannot be part of the revered conversation, and stay firmly entrenched in the top 7 mix, year after year.</p>

<p>A carefully integrated strategic plan featuring CAS and Engineering could be the catapult to accelerate the rise...and why not; all of the ingredients are present? Next perhaps the powerful future potential of Life Sciences, Weill Cornell would be tapped...and so on...etc.</p>

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<p><a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/22/nyregion/22image.html?ex=1303358400&en=a5dc687357bca968&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/22/nyregion/22image.html?ex=1303358400&en=a5dc687357bca968&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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<p>"A carefully integrated strategic plan featuring CAS and Engineering could be the catapult to accelerate the rise...and why not; all of the ingredients are present? Next perhaps the powerful future potential of Life Sciences, Weill Cornell would be tapped...and so on...etc."</p>

<p>but wouldn't pouring support into only CAS and Engineering run into Ezra Cornell's motto of "any person, any study?" Part of the reason Cornell is unique is because of the strengh of its programs beyond just CAS and Engr. The variety of programs offered is something a school like harvard simply cannot match.</p>

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<p>Gomestar,</p>

<p>Fundamentally, the objective would not be so much in "pouring support into CAS and Eng...etc." at the expense of the other schools...oh no...far from it; but rather, I am wondering if there is a way better take advantage of the broader world class reputation of CAS and Eng; and brand it in such a way that all of Cornell will benefit. Once accomplished, each of the other schools, on a subtle and carefully phased in [ i.e. time released ] basis gets to tell their story to an even more interested audience.</p>

<p>ILR, AAP, CALS...etc...each with their distinctive flavors and attractions are now part of the enhanced entity.</p>

<p>It may be very naive of me, but I cannot help but believe that there has got to be a different mix and balance to a strategy that immediately begins to reposition and leverage Cornell's best assets...for the betterment of the whole.</p>

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<p>** <em>if there is a way better</em>**</p>

<p>Sorry...much fatigue.</p>

<p>Meant to say: "if there is a better way to take advantage...etc"</p>

<p>Meanwhile...Byerly, thank you for reprinting the NY Times article from April.</p>

<p>What say you?</p>

<p>Is the ship too big to turn...and is there merit to attempting to make the turn?</p>

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<p>"and brand it in such a way that all of Cornell will benefit"</p>

<p>well ... even though I'm in ILR, i've taken around 20-25 of my credits in CAS so far. I can take as many as I want. In fact, some of my classes HAVE to be taken in CAS. </p>

<p>I'm still looking for more info for what you mean, perhaps give examples or something...</p>

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<p>So, what would be the goal? To somehow please USNWR and achieve a higher ranking? Honestly, who cares? Do you really think that by somehow rebranding Cornell it will mysteriously begin to be mentioned in the same breath as HYP? Maybe after 100 years and several generations of marketing efforts it might (though I doubt it), but the outstanding reputations of HYP are simply part of the American psyche. Americans who never had any intention of going to college know about HYP, and believe that they are "the best". Students applying to colleges are not going to be easily persuaded that HYP are anything but "the best". In fact, I would argue that at this point, HYP could let themselves slip, really let the quality of education offered slide, and it would take a really long time (if it ever happened at all) before anyone thought to change the HYP -- "the best" mentality. But, somehow, not everyone who goes to Cornell had it as a safety school. Many of us chose to go to Cornell. Sure, rip into me now and tell me that if I could have gone to HYP I would have -- but the reality is that that simply isn't true. I fell in love with Cornell the first time I visited despite what any rankings said. Am I really the only one?</p>

<p>When applying to Law School, for my MBA and for many jobs in business and law, I have never once been asked which college I attended at Cornell (other than from the one of the several Cornell grads I have met along the way who wanted to share stories about days past, rather than judge me by my college). It just doesn't happen. Graduate/professional schools and employers have always seemed incredibly impressed by Cornell education and have never indicated for even one second that they care to inquire further than that. So why should one or two colleges at Cornell be distinguished from the rest to the detriment of the other colleges. The reality is that average SAT scores are not everything, and almost no one in the world cares what your scores were after you get your degree. Some people specifically choose to go to AAP, CALS, ILR, etc. because of the majors offered in that particular school and some people specifically choose to go to a statutory college because of the costs. </p>

<p>So, again, what would be the goal?</p>

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<p>lol simba is always trying to put some colleges above others. oy...</p>

<p>I do think you have a pretty good argument (OP) but I don't know how much that would happen...</p>

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<p>Thanks Figgy.</p>

<p>sallyawp. Well said, and I commend you for your achievements and story.</p>

<p>I also fully appreciate and understand your sentiment about falling in love with Cornell at first sight.</p>

<p>The rankings are merely a means to an end.</p>

<p>Simply stated, I was trying to put forth a particular basic strategy idea that might help accelerate Cornell's rise to higher prominence.</p>

<p>Cornell enjoys a favorable worldwide reputation. IMHO, its reputation deserves to be enhanced further and for the long haul. Doing so will help raise the collective conciousness of Cornell in the world and to a larger number of the strongest applicants.</p>

<p>Ultimately, Cornell should rightfully be viewed alongside HYP...and MS if you will, as a viable first option. Uniquely, Cornell is positioned to harness its vast potential to really take off as the world class alternative to the other schools.</p>

<p>Why? Why not...and this can be accomplished in less than ten years I believe.</p>

<p>A fully realized Cornell will serve to provide greater opportunities to its entire community to participate in wider roles as a worldwide economic engine and problem solver.</p>

<p>To the extent this enhanced image and reality of Cornell is beneficial to all Cornellians, past, future and present...so be it.</p>

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<p>"branding"? "leverage"? are you kidding me? people... please wake up and smell the coffee. if Cornell wants to be the "C" in HYPMSC it's going to have to actually become a "better" school. no amount of PR is going to get us there. this is the same crap GM and Chrysler tried in the 80s. in the end, the reason Cornell isn't currently the "C" in HYPMSC has nothing to do with its public relations department. PR may be able to sway Cornell's image a few notches in one direction or another, but in the end Cornell's position in the hierarchy of higher education is anchored by actual facts.</p>

<p>the original poster seems to like to talk in business terms. i have no idea how to do this but i'll give it a try: what do universities produce? 1. graduates 2. research/scholarship. *** On average ***, do HYPMS produce higher quality product than Cornell? the short answer is... "yes", regardless of a lot of the spin and self-delusion on this board. for a reality check, i suggest comparing Cornell to HYPMS in the following categories: number of current national academy of sciences members per capita, current faculty Nobel prizes per capita, current Pulitzer prizes per capita, current Fields medals per capita, current average salaries of graduates, rates of admission of Cornell undergrads to top law/med schools -- you get the idea.</p>

<p>if you <em>really</em> want some substantive ideas to make Cornell part of HYPMS here are a few:</p>

<ol>
<li> reduce the incoming class size to 2100 to put the student/fac ratio on par with HYPMS. the opposite approach (adding faculty) is not an option. Cornell is in the middle of nowhere. getting bigger while increasing quality is not going to work.</li>
<li> start spending money on increasing faculty salaries and financial aid to put them on par with HYPMS, instead of the never-ending torrent of new buildings</li>
<li> raise money so you can do these things (the current endowment per capita is pitiful)</li>
</ol>

<p>in response to the original poster, i think marketing colleges separately would only work for AAP, Hotel, and Vet (introduce an undergrad vet program?). these are unique, highly reputable schools with less direct competition from HYPMS. ala Wharton. they could improve Cornell's overall reputation. </p>

<p>and if you really want a "marketing" idea to make HYPMS<em>C</em> a reality: investigate the possible impact of refusing the state contribution to the statutory schools. the idea being to dissolve them, fund them fully privately, or merge them wholly/partially with the other colleges. like it or not, the statutory schools are one of the leading reasons Cornell is perceived as "lower quality" than HYPMS. i am only saying this based on personal experience (i have heard this a lot when Cornell is compared to HYPMS), but "market research" will probably support this. and yeah, these schools are already fully private.. yadda yadda i know, but it doesn't matter. the lower prestige of "public service" schools compared to fully private ones is the reason, for example that it isn't: "HYPMSB", with B being Berkeley. on average, Berkeley's faculty and research are easily HYPMS-caliber, yet look at how it is perceived. the underlying compromise is that for whatever reasons, it is much harder to fill a public institution with the same quality of <em>undergrads</em> as at HYPMS. the public mission has a cost.</p>

<p>you can argue that all this would change Cornell in bad ways too, and you'd be right. "any person any study"? in summary, if you really want to be like HYPMS, be careful what you wish for.</p>

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<p>^^^</p>

<p>i disagree with alot of that.</p>

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<p>You ought not get your knickers all tied up in a twist ihaveabunni. I simply believe that Cornell has the possibility to position itself in such a way to be thought of as an alternative to the HYPMS model by a greater number of applicants, and not be like them, and certainly not the second choice by many.</p>

<p>I do not want to compromise Cornell's unique identity; I want to capitalize upon it. There is great potential, and Cornell can gain from its inherent positions of strength first--and address weakness accordingly.</p>

<p>There was the notion 140 years ago, that Cornell was America's first true university, an innovation in education. That is just one place of differentiation to start. The potential is there to exponentially grow this "enterprise".</p>

<p>Point well taken about Berkeley. I believe Cornell finds itself somewhere between HYPMS and Berkeley in many respects. </p>

<p>What you have suggested, has been noted elsewhere and is valid and I tend to generally agree with. Class size should be smaller...perhaps 2500 to 2700; and then reassess. Faculty compensation and financial aid improvements can only help. Ithaca is not in the middle of nowhere. That is a tired observation. </p>

<p>The statutory colleges represent an opportunity, not a drag on Cornell. It is how you perceive things. There is more upside to this story than not.</p>

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<p>The point I am making here, is that you Cornell fanbois are way more enthusiastic about trying to make Cornell more popular, than you are about actually making Cornell a better school as measured by faculty scholarship and quality of graduates. You have your priorities backwards. This is a bit "wag the dog". A school's prestige derives essentially from its quality. Not the other way around.</p>

<p>I do not know your thought process, but perhaps you think people should go to a certain school to get a diploma, so that the school name on that diploma will somehow improve their future salary/life. Thus marketing that school name becomes of utmost importance? This is all bass-ackwards and very self-centered. It also omits the only real thing a student leaves Cornell with: an education.</p>

<p>The quality of the school is not some abstract thing that you should only care about because it vaguely influences your future salary. The academic research of today drives the economy 20 years from now. Producing graduates with the ability to <em>do</em> certain things (not with the ability to show a piece of paper with a certain school's name on it) is also vital to the economy. Things are patented, invented, and created. Students learn things. It is not abstract. It has nothing to do with "perception," as you put it. On average, the quality of this activity happening at Cornell is <em>lower</em> than at HYPMS. Do you understand? If Stanford was destroyed in a nuclear explosion, the US economy would suffer more than if Cornell were nuked. No amount of website redesign or "rebranding" is going to change this.</p>

<p>As for the following, I really have no idea what any of it means:
"
I do not want to compromise Cornell's unique identity; I want to capitalize upon it. There is great potential, and Cornell can gain from its inherent positions of strength first--and address weakness accordingly.</p>

<p>There was the notion 140 years ago, that Cornell was America's first true university, an innovation in education. That is just one place of differentiation to start. The potential is there to exponentially grow this "enterprise".
"</p>

<p>You make it sound like HYPMS are in a different business than Cornell. They are not. They compete for the same students and research grant money. If you are talking about admitting students HYPMS would not, I would sure like to know who these people are, and how you think this gives Cornell an advantage over HYPMS. Admitting women, jews, and blacks to increase the talent pool (part of the whole "first true American university" thing) is no longer mold-breaking revolutionary stuff, i'm afraid. Also American Studies, African-American Studies, and Women's Studies academic departments (Pioneered by Cornell, I think) are common now everywhere.</p>

<p>Also:
"
What you have suggested, has been noted elsewhere and is valid and I tend to generally agree with. Class size should be smaller...perhaps 2500 to 2700; and then reassess. Faculty compensation and financial aid improvements can only help. Ithaca is not in the middle of nowhere. That is a tired observation.
"
These suggestions are not some afterthought to the marketing campaign that can "only help" -- as you put it. They are material suggestions to improve the quality of the university. In my opinion, they are 10x more important and effective per dollar than the "branding of CAS and Engineering" (title of this thread). To complete the GM analogy from my previous post: I am talking about redesigning GM's 1980s cars so that they get more than 16 miles per gallon and do not break down every 10000 miles. You are talking about spending more on advertising and adding more cupholders. My entire point here is: sure image is important, but in the case of universities it is not as important as the quality of the product. Universities are not like women's clothing, where the opposite is true.</p>

<p>"
The statutory colleges represent an opportunity, not a drag on Cornell. It is how you perceive things. There is more upside to this story than not.
"
In my opinion, compared to the other colleges in Cornell they are neither a drag nor a boon, as defined by the quality of scholarship. I never said so, either way. I merely presented a real rebranding idea, as opposed to the typical "if we tell people the College of Engineering is as good as MIT often enough maybe people will start to believe it" -type sentiment frequently expressed on this board. Cornell students and alumni (myself included, sometimes) are rarely able to judge Cornell's place in the academic hierarchy objectively, I have noticed. Perhaps their self-esteem is overly-dependent on Cornell's reputation.</p>

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<p>ihaveabunni, I don't know why you are reviving this thread now, but your negative attitude comes through clearly from your post. Why did you go to Cornell in the first place? And in what way did it let you down? HAve you suffered in getting a job or going to graduate school or meeting your career goals having graduated from Cornell?</p>

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<p>Sallyawp is the only one who has made sense on this board. Who cares about HYP? One of Cornell's strength's is that the students there are very goal oriented, are "do-ers", and the graduates of the different colleges are prepared with a strong education to contribute to society as engineers, lawyers, builders, vets, architects, scientists, etc. Spend any time at the school and you will find that no one is bemoaning the fact that they are not at Harvard. Do you honestly want to spend four years with the likes of Byerly?</p>