BS/MD or BA/MD STATS??

<p>I see your point and thanks for your insight</p>

<p>lol google223, I think norcalguy answered all your questions, thank you for making it clear that DO's are equivalent doctors to MD's</p>

<p>what I meant with bias, is that it seems to me with all my posts and CC, no one is applying to BS/DO programs compared to BS/MD programs</p>

<p>One reason for that I think is not many people know about DO's, I learned about them just 2 years ago...but I guess the whole medical field is a learning process and you learn something new everyday:)</p>

<p>2006 USMLE stats:</p>

<p>On step 1:
-FIVE percent (5%) of MD students taking it for the first time failed.
-TWENTY-THREE percent (23%) of DO students taking it for the first time failed. (FOUR AND THREE-FIFTHS TIMES the failure rate of MD students)</p>

<p>On Step 2 CK (clinical knowledge test):
-FIVE percent (5%) of MD students taking it for the first time failed.
-TWENTY percent (20%) of DO students taking it for the first time failed. (FOUR TIMES the failure rate of MD students)</p>

<p>Well, there are stats for DO students taking the Step 2 CS (clinical skills test) and the Step 3, but very few of them take it, so I don't know if they can be considered 'significant' data. I won't bother posting them here.</p>

<p>Perhaps the chasm between the quality of DO and MD students, based on the USMLE (I would assume the USMLE is a very good assessment of knowledge and clinical skills for doctors), can be largely explained by the quality of the students who are accepted to either. Or it can be largely explained by the quality of the different schools, although it seems that both teach just about the same things.</p>

<p>I think part of it is the fact that DO students have worse qualifications entering med school (so their fail on the boards is higher and they are more likely to drop out of med school). But, the biggest reason is simply that the USMLE and COMLEX are different tests. Keep in mind, the USMLE is the allopathic board exam. DO students are not expected to take it and osteopathic schools do not teach to it. The COMLEX is more clinically oriented while the USMLE includes more basic science. </p>

<p>It would be as if you were enrolled in an intro physics class at Cornell but decided to take the final for the intro physics course at MIT. Even though it's still just physics, the MIT test might emphasize something different than what your professor has been teaching you at Cornell. You can see how you'd probably score better on a test written by the professor at Cornell rather than by a professor at MIT.</p>

<p>@norcalguy: I think the fail rate has more to do with the quality of students/school, less with the fact that it's a much different exam than COMLEX, because DOs should be learning just about the same things as MDs in school--although that's just an opinion of mine. </p>

<p>It would be cool to see how MD students would do on the COMLEX though, I'd like to see the results on that.</p>

<p>Now let me add my two cents about MDs and DOs.</p>

<p>I would choose a MD over DO any day. </p>

<p>1.) DO reputation is definitely not as high as the MD. I think you will have to do a lot of explaining to friends, family, patients all about it--something I would get sick of doing.</p>

<p>2.) Prejudice against DOs, although certainly has lessened, is certainly not in the distant past. If you want to pursue a DO you should be prepared to face some discrimination against you in the workplace. But in eight, ten or so years, by the time you get your residency, it probably continue to be less of a problem than it is today. </p>

<p>3.) If you're looking for research, DOs lack it, although this has been changing as DOs continue to be like MDs. Go for a MD.</p>

<p>4.) If you're going to pursue a DO, I think you should keep an open mind with the stuff they teach you. It won't be a problem if you're actually all into it and embrace everything. But if you're like me, distrust-ful of alternative meds and herbs and stuff--I think you'll have a tough time digesting some things. So bear with the school if you lacked the stats to get into a MD school and had to stick it out with DO.
Osteopathy is not supported by scientific evidence. Claims for the success of osteopathic treatment are largely testimonial based and not scientifically based. It's really a good thing most practicing DOs have been using less and less of the junk they were taught.</p>

<p>My personal opinion/conclusion: DO is inferior to MD. Its quality is more on par with MDs today simply because it has copied off everything MDs teach over its lifetime.</p>

<p>I think Illinois187, you are greatly biased and I will explain why:</p>

<p>*Have you done any research into the bias of MD/DO? Because nowadays the bias is washing down and there's very little only among the old school doctors as norcalguy
*Also, I'M SURE ALL THE MD STUDENTS WILL FAIL THE COMLEX, BUT THEY DON'T TAKE IT, SO I FIGURE IT'S LIKE SAT/ACT, WHICH ARE SO DIFFERENT YET ARE SUPPOSED ARE ENTRANCE EXAMS TO COLLEGE, DO'S ARE SUCCESSFUL WITH COMLEX AND IF THEY WORK AT IT, USMLE, BECAUSE I HAVE BEEN TOLD BY DO SENIORS IN MED SCHOOL, 20% of their med school residency hopefuls got AN ALLOPATHIC RESIDENCY</p>

<p>now sorry it was caps, but I want to get the point across: With hard work, determination, good study skills, and ultimately good USMLE scores, DO'S CAN GET ALLOPATHIC RESIDENCIES...</p>

<p>"Osteopathy is not supported by scientific evidence. Claims for the success of osteopathic treatment are largely testimonial based and not scientifically based. It's really a good thing most practicing DOs have been using less and less of the junk they were taught."</p>

<p>I highly disagree because then I ask WHY WOULD 20 OSTEOPATHIC MEDICAL SCHOOLS TEACH OMM, ACTUALLY I HEAR MANY PATIENTS LIKE OMM AND PREFER DO'S AND OMM WORKS TO HELP TREAT MANY COMMON PROBLEMS:</p>

<p>Osteopathic Manipulative Treatment (OMT)</p>

<p>OMT is a procedure that involves a form of manual treatment applied by a physician to eliminate or alleviate somatic dysfunction and related disorders. Treatment may be accomplished using a variety of approaches including Counterstrain, Cranial, Muscle Energy, Myofascial Release (MFR) and High Velocity-Low Amplitude (HVLA) thrust, among others. The Osteopathic Manipulative Medicine specialist physician is skilled in a broad spectrum of manipulative procedures for the treatment of neuromusculoskeletal (somatic) dysfunction. <a href="http://www.osteopathicadvantage.com/osteopathic_medicine.htm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.osteopathicadvantage.com/osteopathic_medicine.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Who Can Benefit From OMT?
OMT can help people of all ages and backgrounds. It can:</p>

<pre><code>* ease pain
* promote healing
* increase mobility
</code></pre>

<p>OMT is often used to treat muscle pain. But it can also help patients with a number of other health problems, among them:</p>

<pre><code>* asthma
* sinus disorder
* carpal tunnel syndrome
* migraines
* menstrual pain
</code></pre>

<p><a href="http://www.osteopathic.org/index.cfm?PageID=ost_omt%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.osteopathic.org/index.cfm?PageID=ost_omt&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>I posted the info because I think OMM can be effective based on the doctor, his approach, and the quality of his education. In the end it doesn't matter if you become an MD and DO, based on what a few doctors I shadowed including MD and DO, said because MOST patient's don't know the difference.</p>

<p>Plus, when I visited Midwestern/CCOM, they actually told me DO's learn more anatomy and other classes like that, while med schools do more biochem, in the end both learn everything about medicine, with a few more differences</p>

<p>However, I will agree with you that getting a MD residency will be difficult, but going into medicine, students know that medical school/becoming a doctor is challenging.</p>

<p>CONCLUSION: DO's are equivalent to MD's in everything, and they actually learn more than biased MD's sometimes because of the emphasis of OMM. DO's just like MD's can prescribe medicine, perform surgery, and do everything else an MD does. Also, DO's can do OMM which can attract patients, while MD's cannot.</p>

<p>Regardless of the reason for not passing the boards, I'm only concerned with the ones who do pass (ie the ones who become physicians). I think they are as qualified as MD's (this applies to Carib docs as well). </p>

<p>Next time you're a hospital, ask some of the docs or nurses there about their impression of DO physicians. I think you will be pleasantly surprised. DO schools have a much higher concentration of non-traditional students so DO med students are generally older and more mature, with a greater sense of responsibility.</p>

<p>The biggest disadvantages of osteopathic schools (for me) are:
1) Lack of research
2) Tougher time getting into competitive specialties. Although, DO students get two cracks at it (first in the osteopathic match and then in the allopathic match).</p>

<p>I didn't know that about DO schools, that they don't do any research?</p>

<p>NSU-COM seems like it offers a lot, and it's actually from what I have read expanding its research opportunities for undergrads.</p>

<p>But I do agree with you on 2, I just don't know anything about 1.</p>

<p>hey sort of off topic but where do u guys find the reserach..........</p>

<p>They do some research but relatively little compared with the top allopathic schools.</p>

<p>@futuredr08:
Please...read what I said again.
"Osteopathy is not supported by scientific evidence. Claims for the success of osteopathic treatment are largely testimonial based and not scientifically based."
Osteopathic treatments lack modern scientific support. Now for me, and I really hope the rest of the general population, if osteopathy is not scientifically proven to be valid, I would do best not to rely on it at all. </p>

<p>No matter how hard you believe osteopathic treatment is totally valid, it does not make it work. It's just testimonial supported. </p>

<p>"WHY WOULD 20 OSTEOPATHIC MEDICAL SCHOOLS TEACH OMM, ACTUALLY I HEAR MANY PATIENTS LIKE OMM AND PREFER DO'S AND OMM WORKS TO HELP TREAT MANY COMMON PROBLEMS:"
Um. Yeah, and why is it that a billion people believe in the Muslim faith, a billion people believe in the Christian faith too. I suppose under your reasoning that makes both religions 'true' (I am not saying both aren't 'true' or anything, I don't intend to start a religion debate here). It is true that many patients (but NOT a majority) do buy into osteopathic treatments, but it does not make it work; it's not scientifically supported. Practicing DOs continue to use less and less of their osteopathic treatments, and I would think it's because they don't really believe it works/it's unreliable.</p>

<p>"I didn't know that about DO schools, that they don't do any research?"
Osteopaths have some research but substantially less than allopaths</p>

<p>To Illinoise817, i was talking to my advisor (neuroscience professor) about how there has to be valid proof on OMM to officially legitimize everything about DO- i think TCOM is one of the DO schools that are putting extensive research on this. </p>

<p>How i view this is that the whole osteopathic manipulation treatment revolves around the gate control theory and pain. I think there is no dispute about the gate control theory,in which there are two types of peripheral nocicepters with the A and C fiber stuff. I can understand why its hard to have "scientific" proof, since it's difficult to measure pain? i mean everyone has a very different perception of it. Anyways, professor was also telling me about Transcutaneous Electrical Nerve Stimulation machine, so i mean the machine i think supports OMM ideal i would say.
<a href="http://www.spineuniverse.com/displayarticle.php/article1694.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.spineuniverse.com/displayarticle.php/article1694.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>But aside from tehcniques, i think this extensive focus in the muskeletal and spinal region would actually help out if you want to be a neurologist- my opinoin though.
I mean i guess you can say OMT is just another option to relieve chronic pain. Or else the only althernative is to just keep feeding patients with advil, tylenol, vicodin, etc. which just kinda overshoots the problem and affect the GI tract and liver</p>

<p>thanks madamebovary for your logical reasoning that will hopefully somewhat prove or support that OMM is useful to treat pain and that DO's are not just back-up plans for failed MD's, which they are in many cases, but not in all cases: </p>

<p>I shadowed one DO who told me shot got into UIC Medical School, Rush Medical School a few others, but she attended Midwestern/CCOM because she wanted to be a DO, liked the philosophy, and she truly believed the OMM will relieve pain and is a better approach vs just taking pills....</p>

<p>she told me she got many patients just by spread of word about OMM</p>

<p>Check state schools in your state of residency. Combined programs at state schools might be somewhat easier to get into. However, ACT=31 probably would be the very bottom, and would be OK (depending on school) in combination with great GPA & ECs. On average you should strive for at least ACT=33.</p>