C- in ap course

Parent Cafe
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<p>At our school, a 70 is a low C and a 69 is failing. My son has taken a couple of AP classes that he shouln’t have, so we have spent time sweating whether he would PASS a couple of courses. This, I consider myself quite experienced in this issue.</p>

<p>What he/we did was to show extreme concern. We monitored every grade. He asked about extra credit. He asked about re-takes of tests. By showing his concern and that he was trying very very hard to raise his grade, Son actually ended up with an 80 in a class that he was technically failing at many points during the year.</p>

<p>With that said, I think it’s too early for that. I don’t like this, but a fairly large percentage of the AP teachers my kids have had have wanted to “shock” their students at the first of the year, and have eased up later. Wait it out a bit and then go the begging/pleading/I love this class and I need your help in figuring out how to do better route.</p>

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<p>My high schooler found himself in a similar situation last year. He got a “C” in a class when he should have gotten a “B”. B-, true, but definitely a B since they do not give pluses or minuses. When he talked to the teacher, he said he gave him the C as a wake up call because of a lowering trend. I fumed at that answer and came close to calling the guy, but let it go. I still disagree with the way the teacher handled the situation, but S did bring up his grade and aced the course for year end. Some teachers are harder that first quarter just to get the kids’ attention.<br>
What is the history of this particular teacher and class, OP? That may give you some idea of what is happening here. I have found that getting involved in this sort of stuff is not the best route for a parent to take. I keep out of it unless it is a truly egregious problem.</p>

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<p>First time on this thread, but these last couple of posts just struck a chord. S is taking his first AP course this year – uh, make that his first SIX AP courses – and I wonder if this “shock grading” is going on in some of his classes, too. In APUSH, they wrote in-class essays graded on a scale of 1-9. The highest grade he knows of is a 5, he got a four along with a couple of other friends, but most got a 2 or 3 and some even got a 1. And in his BC Cal class, his grades have ranges from 40-110 on quizzes. How does that happen?</p>

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<p>I’d suggest trying to find out what you can from students who took APUSH last year. Maybe this teacher has a pattern of giving very tough grades in the beginning with the idea that this will help the students adjust to college level work, and most students bring up their grade over the semester.</p>

<p>My D took AP Psychology last year and had a C as a progress report grade (except for math, she had all A’s until then) and thought about dropping the class, but she liked the teacher and decided to stay with it. I did talk to the teacher, and she said that grades usually go up over time. D wound up with a B first semester (weighted like an A in a regular class at her school), A second semester, and a 5 on the exam. I think it was a good experience. Except for math, she had never been challenged by a high school course.</p>

<p>On the APUSH exam, the essays are graded on a 0-9 scale. I read APUSH exams, and very very few students score an 8 or 9 (the few 9s we encountered were passed around the table). Most were in the 2-5 range, with more 3s than anything else. Maybe the teacher is trying to grade according to the APUSH standards. I’d try to find out what grade the teacher assigns for a 4 on the in-class essays.</p>

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<p>There are many explanations for that, Youdontsay. The AP class is supposed to cover very specific topics and there might be a gap between those and what the student has as a base. It is considered normal for low grades in BC calc, for example, because there are kids who go in there directly from precalc at times with just a quick Calc run through. Also some regular calc courses do not cover differentiation/integration in the detail needed for B/C calc. So a kid who took regular calc or community college calc over the summer can get his clock cleaned on B/C calc. </p>

<p>Also the essays look for specific things in format and if the school has not been making the kids write that way, or sometimes more creative kids have problems with the format until they learn it. In the first few weeks, a lot of that stuff gets ironed out. Most schools and teachers understand that these kids are their top students and it does not behoove them to give these kids bad grades. If they are not making the mark, the class needs to be changed so that the kids get the material well enough to do well or it is going to reflect badly on the school in terms of the test scores, % of kids taking the test, and how well the kids do in getting into colleges including the elite schools. If there are active and interested parents in the area who have kids applying to the most competitive schools, a teacher who is not making it in teaching AP courses or low grading the kids, is going to hear about it along with those in administration. I don’t think he would last long that way, unless the school does not care and the parents do not have much say. I can tell you it would not fly here.</p>

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<p>You have an excellent point and that may be what is happening. Quite a few of my kids’ AP teachers have graded and timed the tests according to AP standards from Day 1 of class. I think that’s nuts because it gives them no time to build proficiency, but that method is common.</p>

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<p>Also the grades on the tests that the kids are taking are not necessarily what is going to be their transcript grade. There is test prep and there is learning the material and they may not be in tandem. I know at sons’ school, they teach the course the way they want to do so, but in the spring, give AP test prep some days and after school, so that the grade in the course and the results on the test are not necessarily linked. I can tell you that was the case for my kids who had little relationship between the two for some subjects!</p>

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<p>tokenadult – I believe your assessment is correct ONLY for the 20% or so of regional adcoms who really know their feeder schools because they’ve been in their region at least three years.</p>

<p>For the other 80%, who have been in their region less than three years, no way in Hades. How for example would you expect the adcom from Stanford that was just hired four weeks ago to cover Ohio, Indiana, and a few other states, would know those regional high schools well after just six months into the job? Do you really think that while reviewing 60applications per day starting on 12/1, that that adcom has time for a decent lunch, let alone a fact finding 20 minutes for the student who shows a C in APUSH? Not enought time in even two years to develop that knowledge base.</p>

<p>I’m not trying to pick on this poor guy, but adcoms usually turn over every 2-4 years. They’re usually not that tenured even at the most prestigious colleges… it’s a tremendous amount of work and the burnout is pretty high. Adcoms don’t do it for the money, that’s for darn sure. Here is the Ohio/Orange County adcom from Stanford:</p>

<p>[Hugo</a> Reyes-Centeno - LinkedIn](<a href=“http://■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■/pub/9/3ba/ab5]Hugo”>http://■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■/pub/9/3ba/ab5)</p>

<p>tokenadult – you think he has 20 minutes to call the counseling office or teacher to learn they give lots of Cs to bright students???</p>

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<p>APUSH teacher weighing in. In my school system, we are under tremendous pressure to improve students’ AP exam scores. The scores are minutely analyzed at all levels of our system and correlated to students’ semester grades in the course, and it is expected that if a student gets an A grade, that student will also score a 5, B = 4, C = 3, etc. It is very closely monitored, and if the correlation is significantly off or overall pass rates in a class are significantly lower than the national average, it becomes very uncomfortable for the teacher. I know of a few who have been reassigned as a result.</p>

<p>The catch is that there is open enrollment in our school system. While teachers and counselors can make recommendations, any student who wishes can take an AP course. Some students who enroll simply lack the necessary reading, writing, and thinking skills. So we always have some students for whom it is just not an appropriate placement. They want the weighted grade, and frankly, in the past I have let myself be pressured by parental expectations. I’ve had students who earned an A who only scored a 3, and in a few cases, even a 2. This year, the message was even more clearly communicated to teachers, and I have revised the grading scheme so that 90% of the grade is based on tests (including final exams). I started out with 25 students, but by the time they had their third test it was down to 9. The ones that are left are working quite hard, and there are no A grades at present (but nothing lower than a C). </p>

<p>I do have regrets. I think some of the students who dropped, although they likely would not have earned the course grade they wanted OR a high AP exam score, would still have been better off and more prepared for college if they had stayed in. Unfortunately, some of those who dropped, without the safety net of a high school setting and parental encouragement while facing that kind of rigor, will flounder and fail when they get to college. I think the test score mania is doing them a disservice, but it is beyond my control. I work very hard at my job, and I am proud of the education I am giving. It is exactly what I would want for my own children. I’m not a wannabe college professor who is trying to feel superior by giving students low grades, and I’m not out to sabotage students’ futures. And I do know there are unfortunate exceptions, but I really think I’m a typical teacher.</p>

<p>I realize that the children of parents who post on this forum are generally well above average, but it is important to realize that 70% of students who take the APUSH exam earn a 3 or lower (just for example-that’s the one I know). So C (or even lower!) grades should not be shocking, but are rather a general reflection of many 16-year-olds’ developmental readiness for college-level work.
[url=<a href=“Supporting Students from Day One to Exam Day – AP Central | College Board”>Supporting Students from Day One to Exam Day – AP Central | College Board]AP</a> Central - Welcome to AP Central<a href=“grade%20distributions%20for%202007%20APUSH%20exam”>/url</a></p>

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<p>ReneeV, don’t you wish you could just teach an Honors level US history class, timing it the way YOU want to time it, emphasizing what YOU think is most important, not driven to be done by late April/early May? Our school really pushes AP classes and I’m really becoming disillusioned with them.</p>

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<p>I can see your how you are pressured to grade more strictly, Renee. However, the OP indicates that at her D’s school, the grades are LOWER than the test results, not the other way around. The kids get high AP scores, which under your system should mean correspondingly high grades. It is possible that the OP is not portraying the situation as it is, of course. Sometimes what everyone is saying “just ain’t so”. But if it is, there is a problem with the teacher’s grading.</p>

<p>I sympathize with your dismay about kids dropping the course because they do have to be careful of their grades at the cost of learning more. I don’t know if it necessarily means that they will struggle in college just because they dropped your APUSH course, however. The regular course just might have provided an appropriate bridge to the college level course for which APUSH is an equivalent. Those kids just may not yet have been ready for the level the test demands, but will be after they take regular ol’ Am His. </p>

<p>AP courses also show the school how well they are preparing their top student to be able to handle that level of difficulty by the time they are eligible to take the course. A school that has too few kids who can do well on the AP tests and courses may want to look at the courses that lead to the course. You don’t blame the course, but the overall preparedness of the student. </p>

<p>I don’t like AP courses for some of the same reasons you bring up. I also sympathize with some creative teachers that feel that they are restrained by having to go by the book in those courses with the exam over their head all of the time. However, I like the fact, that finally there is a course that actually measures on a standard basis what a kid has learned in terms of college level. As creative and wonderful as a course or teacher may be, it is difficult to say if it covered all the material it was supposed to cover. With an AP course there is that accountabilty.</p>

<p>At my sons’ school, most of the kids who take the exam get a a 4 or a 5, mostly 5s. Very few 3s or lower. The grades tend to be lower than the test scores, from what I see, but the curriculum is heavier than what the course covers. There are kids who take the exam without the course and I am told they do as well or better. It is required to take the exam if you take the course, but not vice versa.</p>

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<p>Califa -</p>

<p>Can you explain the grading system for APessays? What translates to a 3 or a 4 or a 5 ? </p>

<p>I ask because DS1 is in 4 APs this year, with the ‘shock’ the student mentality seeming to prevail in two of the 4. In those 2, he is getting the dreaded C+ on graded assignments but - on the in class graded essays - he is getting 5s and 6s, which seems to be a positive score for this early in the year. </p>

<p>Thanks !</p>

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<p>No argument from me on any of your points, missypie and cptofthehouse. I also teach regular US history courses, and I wish we had something in between, but the choices in all content areas in our school are AP or regular, with no mid-level.</p>

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<p>Are there options for kids who want to make that jump into AP History the year or so before taking it? I know that my current son’s high school has honors courses that are a prelude to AP for those wanting to take it but not ready for the jump. This year, kids who are not ready for AP history courses may take the honors World history and then segue into AP US next year, joining those who may be taking AP World or AP European this year. Or they may continue in honors US history and then go into AP European or AP Govt senior year. Also a suggestion is a summer packet for kids who want to make the jump. That is also provided for kids at S’s school in many subjects and for kids who have committed to taking AP the upcoming year. My son had 8 weeks of work and readings done by the time school started this year for his AP world. The same was the case for my other son when he took AP Bio.</p>

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<p>My D got a C first quarter last year in AP Government. She kept working at it and managed to pull it up to a B for the semester grade (the only one that counts). She hated the class (she does not like Govmt. at all) but it gave her the confidence to take 2 APs this year. She is currently running As in both classes. Grades are not everything, particularly this early in the year. If she likes the class, let her stay.</p>

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<p>Oh, yes, now that you mention it, we do have a two-year honors world history and literature sequence for freshmen and sophomores, and I would say about half of all students take it rather than the regular social studies and language arts courses. I think it is good preparation, but realistically, only the students who make A grades in the honors world as sophomores (15% or so, because again, it is open enrollment) are likely to make B grades in AP. </p>

<p>I do give summer work, but not eight weeks’ worth. The summer reading load was probably equivalent to what I give in a week during the school year. And that whole thing is complicated a bit by my particular school’s transient student population, mostly military dependents with close to 1/3 turnover every year. Out of the nine students I have left in AP, three weren’t here last spring for me to give them work, and I really don’t know what kind of schools they come from. I’m just glad they seem capable and are willing to work hard at it!</p>

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<p>Queen’s mom, the OP’s D is not only with a C in the course, but has a teacher who has the rep of giving lots of Cs. If she is truly HPY material and this is the first blemish, it may be wise to get out of Dodge. If the teacher is reasonable and does not down grade the class, that’s a whole different story. Many times kids come up with this story and it is not true. This is something that needs to be verified before making the decision. I did not believe the B/C calc saga at S’s school which turned out to be true because I’ve heard this tale so many times I could scream. More times than not it is not true. Teachers that down grade the top students don’t tend to last long in most highschools with ambitious students with parents on top of the situation. I know at S;s school his last year, the AP Physics teacher got the heave ho because of student/parent complaints. IT’s just too important an issue to too many at the school and parents in the situation of finding their kids college prospects diminished this way can be quite aggressive.</p>

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<p>I do agree that how to proceed depends on the student’s goals. My D had a C one semester in AP Phys, and a couple of B grades in other AP classes out of eight APs in all (07 grad). She was aiming for schools that were 30 to 50 in the rankings and was accepted at all with good merit from some. If she had been looking at tippy-top schools, I think it would have been a real long shot.</p>

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<p>“Queen’s mom, the OP’s D is not only with a C in the course, but has a teacher who has the rep of giving lots of Cs. If she is truly HPY material and this is the first blemish, it may be wise to get out of Dodge.”</p>

<p>If the teacher gives out lots of Cs, but there are also a good smattering of B’s and A’s, maybe, just maybe, the teacher is communicating in the best way she is capable, based on her experience, that the student should (relative to other students in the same class) not be considered HYP material. I certainly couldn’t fault the teacher for that.</p>

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<p>Has the student contacted the teacher to learn what needs to be improved? Could the parents go over the test with the student so the parents can see for themselves what the teacher marked off for?</p>