<p>D1 has one of these teachers at her school. He teaches several history APs. He's actually an excellent teacher who sees his mission as making the kids into critical thinkers. The students do very well on the APs and in college. But the grade distribution is a bit lower than in other classes. On the other hand, everyone at the school takes this guy.</p>
<p>"Actually, the worst part is that even if the C doesn't get one rejected or waitlisted, it most certainly kicks them out of the competitive scholarship rounds."</p>
<p>One former student's parents are still furious at this teacher because their child got a B, which was enough to tip the kid out of capturing a juicy merit-based full-ride a few years ago. The parents did go in to plead with the teacher about the grading, to no avail. </p>
<p>OP, I'm wondering: if your daughter ends up doing well in the class, and if she truly enjoys the class and works hard at it, it may be that a good rec from this teacher could end up helping her, or at least making up for a lower grade. Asking parents of older students, or parents whose older kids had the tough teacher and who are now in college, might give you some guidance.</p>
<p>cptofthehouse:
I think it is a circle. Parents resist hard-grading teachers. Adcoms are very well aware of that. So they suspect grade inflation at any unfamiliar school, and accept more kids from feeder schools, where they know what every grade means (whether deflated or inflated - at least they have 200 applications from their feeder school, and can choose among those kids).</p>
<p>The issue is only a problem if she has her eye on some competitive scholarships or schools. It is a circle, Citymom, but it is unfair that those with high grades in a more challenging environment or class can be penalized in terms of a merit scholarship or acceptance. It can happen. In my second son's year, I knew two boys well. One went to a school where it is easier to get the grades. He got into UVA. The other kid with slightly higher SATs went to a school with a tough grading system and did not get a 3.5 which less than 10% of the kids achieve at a school where the kids are preselected. He was not accepted even though he was a legacy. Told that it was the grades when asked admissions. No question which kid was the better prepared, stronger student. Now in grad school at an ivy having graduated with top grades. The other struggled in college, but he sure did get into some great schools with those grades.</p>
<p>I have an opposite experience. My daughter went to a pre-selected public, which is known to be challenging. An equivalent of a 3.5 was WAY BEYOND of what was needed to get into UVA-level university, I think. It probably put Ivies within reach, especially for a double legacy (daughter's school did not calculate the GPA and had no class rank, just gave the % average). At least my daughter had a far from perfect GPA, and she had no problem being accepted at top school outside HYPs.</p>
<p>General question to everyone posting in the thread: </p>
<p>How do you know if a child misses out on some highly sought after opportunity (e.g., admission to a top Ivy League college, or gaining a full-ride tuition, fees, room, and board scholarship at some other college) unless the child is PERFECT in all other respects but the one factor you worry about? We hear about, and have extensively discussed, </p>
<p>cases in which getting peak test scores may still not result in a child getting into the child's first-choice college, and we all have all heard (and this is mathematically true) that the top Ivy colleges could fill their classes several times over with students who have perfect grade averages by the standards of this or that high school. But how do we know in an individual case that one student or another was rejected for a particular specific reason? Does the denial letter say so? Does the student personally know an otherwise IDENTICAL applicant who just had the one additional factor, or what? </p>
<p>I'll start a new thread about one aspect of what is KNOWN about grade averages that get into good colleges, because I see I am participating in two separate threads here about high school grades and college admission. In this thread, I'll recommend that everyone read </p>
<p>a book that you may be able to find in your friendly public library, to see how unclear grading standards are anywhere, a fact well known to college admission officers, who have sometimes said in public meetings, "The G.P.A. is the least useful number in college admissions." </p>
<p>I'll respond more specifically to questions that were specifically asked me here after I build my new thread with some data look-ups. My advice to the OP is to suggest that the DAUGHTER, not the parent, approach the teacher by asking "What can I do to learn more effectively in this course?"</p>
<p>I absolutely agree that the daughter approach the teacher about the grade in the course. I also think that if this is an issue that just may hurt the D's prospects for scholarships or admission to a top school, and if the OP thinks this is an unreasonable teacher in the picture, they ought to rethink continuing the course. Now in my particular situation with my kids, I would not get involved unless there were a lot more to the story, since the schools for which my kids were targeted were not going to be affected by a C in APUSH. My kids were B students with occasional C's and B's and I did not want to hear about the tyrant teacher who gives out only C's. However, if I were in a different situation, it might behoove me and my kid to get involved, because unfortunately there are teachers out there that are not fair and could make a negative impact on my kids.</p>
<p>As for grades, one B could make the difference in awards, a C certainly could. I have seen that in awards where the gpa differential was infinitismally small for the marker to go to one student or another. I have heard stories that were reliable about ivy admissions going the same way. So yes, for a kid whose records are other wise immaculate but nothing truly out there like a Siemens finalist or legacy connection, it can make a difference, depending on the schools involved. </p>
<p>As for the GPA being the least useful number in admissions, I do not agree. Perhaps just by itself, but class rank and gpa is a big deal. Michelle Hernandez and other former admissions directors of selective schools are clear about where kids have to be in terms of grades and classes taken to be in consideration for acceptance.</p>
<p>A perfect GPA and test score still is not going to ensure admittance to certain schools, but it sure as heck ups your chances more than anything else.</p>
<p>citymom -- it isn't the GPA that is the issue... it is that a C in most high schools usually means the student could not master the material. If a student cannot master the material in high school, what does that say about the student's prospects at a tough college? Apparently at this high school, except for the ONE teacher, a C would mean that.</p>
<p>I (personally) would rather see 3 B grades on a transcript than one C grade, even though the one C would yield a higher GPA than three Bs.</p>
<p>tokenadult, I'm with DunninLA, and think the odds that the admissions officers have any idea about an individual teacher's grading standards are very low, unless the school is a well-known feeder school. At QMP's high school, there were many instances in which several teachers with different standards taught the same course in the same year. The name of the teacher was not listed on the transcript. There was no way for an admissions officer to differentiate.</p>
<p>To the OP: Is the teacher applying some standard % scale from the high school to the AP tests? On some of the AP exams, 75% correct will suffice for a 5, but 75% was a D at my high school and a C at my daughter's. The raw AP % needs to be adjusted to reflect the score to which it corresponds.</p>
<p>Researcher:
I would agree that your daughter (not you) should ask the teacher how she can improve her grade. Beyond that point, you should decide, what is your strategy. There are different ones. And, importantly, they all work!
One, as cptofthehouse suggests, is to fight for a perfect GPA. It DOES help. And being a val helps (if your daughter has a chance). You probably cannot eliminate the teacher at this point. But maybe it is not to late to drop the course.
The other - let your daughter take whatever classes she likes and do not worry about GPA too much. She WILL NOT end up with a C. The teacher may be rare on As, but he should give Bs to at least half the class (schools and districts DO control that C-'s are not median grades). Aim for at least a B+ or A-. And get a 5 on the AP exam. From what I know about top school admissions, this will be enough as long as the kid seems interesting. One B may affect ONLY your chance of becoming a val, where GPA is calculated to I do not know how many points, and 3.999999 is indeed worse than 4.0. It will probably not even change the final GPA for college or for scholarships - it will remain 4.0 even if one of 60 or so grades is a B. You need several low (high) grades to ruin (or improve) your GPA so that colleges will notice.
From what I know, GPA is NOT a very important number in admissions .. as long as it is high.</p>
<p>A am pretty certain that the girl is not at any risk of getting a C as long as she stays within the top half of the class. There are teachers that give few As from year to year. But those who give Cs to more than half of the class are eliminated after one year.</p>
<p>I am not advocating fighting for a perfect gpa. If the teacher is a tough grader but considered with the realm of normal, and kids do get through her class regularly with A's and B's , and go onto the type of schools that the girl is eyeing, fine. If the teacher is truly rogue and this is really a problem that no one else cares about because nearly all the kids go to local schools and the C doesn't hurt anyone, then it is a whole different story. This may all be about nothing as the girl may just be making the transition to more difficult courses and her gpa no longer may be a perfect 4.0 anymore. </p>
<p>I do NOT advocate going ape over messing up a perfect gpa if that is the way it is going to go in a fair process.</p>
<p>After speaking to administrators on my campus, I can vouch for the fact that AP is harder than college, if taught at the level that the College Board wants. For some reason, the profs behind the tests and courses have pushed to make the courses harder than the ones given in college. Perhaps a bit of snobbery here? I don't know. Many students in our school that didn't get a 3 or higher on the AP took their college placement tests and placed out of many courses.</p>
<p>
[quote=researcher, the original poster]
Mid quarter grades were posted today and my junior daughter ( An A student in all honors) has a C- in apush. All other grades are strong.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>So it looks like the OP's daughter has a high grade average, and presumably a high class rank, at her high school. That's a good start. </p>
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</p>
<p>I presume this issue comes up for a senior (member of class of 2009), so that the AP score will not be available to look at as part of the college application. That's unfortunate, but if the teacher indeed has a track record of lots of students scoring well on the AP test, that is verifiable information and a good background for the OP's daughter to have. </p>
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</p>
<p>If the daughter is in the top half of a class that is genuinely at a college level, she is off to a good start. </p>
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</p>
<p>I think the DAUGHTER should talk to the teacher, along lines such as this: </p>
<p>"I see I'm not scoring very high yet on my AP United States history tests, and I'm wondering what I should do to learn the material more thoroughly and understand the course better. I appreciate that you are trying to make the class challenging so that it gets me ready for college, but of course I'm also concerned about my grades, because I don't know if every college I apply to will be aware that you set such high standards. I'm not asking you to change my grades for the work I've done so far, but can I ask for advice about how to study for and think about this course so that I really understand it and do my personal best?" </p>
<p>Any student who approaches a teacher in this manner would be very refreshing and might be expected to get a GREAT letter of recommendation from that teacher. How many high school teachers ever have a student who says, "How can I learn this course better?" rather than "Can't you please raise my grade?" </p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Out of line with what? Where is there a universal standard of how high school courses should be graded? </p>
<p>
<p>I don't know what highly selective schools the daughter desires to apply to. She should, as much as she is able, visit college information sessions </p>
<p>in her town to get good advice on how to prepare an appealing college application. ANYONE applying to highly selective colleges should first of all line up a suitable "safety" college </p>
<p>that the applicant would thrive at and enjoy. If we are talking about the REALLY highly selective colleges, NOTHING can guarantee admission into those. </p>
<p>On the issue of AP United States history, I have no idea what is customary in what parts of the country about how hard that course is or at what grade level it is offered. My son took it in ninth grade as a distance-learning course. He found the course challenging, because his main interest is mathematics, but he learned a lot of history and a lot of writing from the course. He took the AP test and got a good score on that, which ensures him college credit at his likely "safety" college. The local high school in my town that I know best usually offers AP United States history to sophomores, who also find that quite a challenging course. </p>
<p>I don't know what the OP's daughter does for fun or for extracurricular activities, or what her career goals are, but a final course grade of C (not likely in this case, I'm pretty sure) would NOT be a disaster if the teacher typically grades with very tough standards and the daughter's other grades are good. Maybe the course grade will be higher, and for sure it is possible to verify that this teacher grades strictly, which is something that the school counselor can communicate if the daughter asks the counselor to mention that. </p>
<p>
[quote=Pizzagirl]
OK, tokenadult, I trust your judgment and experience - here's a theoretical.
Let's say my son decides to apply to Whitman College in WA. There's no way in hell that anyone from our school ever applied there -- IF they ever applied anyplace out west, it would be a UCLA or USC or UCB at most, certainly nothing as off the beaten track of state-school-or-bust as a Whitman (or a Pomona, or a Harvey Mudd ... you get the idea).</p>
<p>According to the Whitman site, the regional rep who covers my area (Illinois) also covers these states: Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Michigan, Minnesota, Missouri, Nebraska, New Mexico, N Dakota, Ohio, Oklahoma, S Dakota, Washington and Wisconsin. The midwest, and THEN some!</p>
<p>How in the world could she possibly "know" all the high schools in that region, when in fact, the number of high schools who will EVER have a student express interest in Whitman is quite low simply because it's a relatively small school and not on the radar screen for most kids?
<p>that it admits quite a few students with grade averages below 3.75 (as I suspected before I looked this up), so I wouldn't expect one grade of C in an AP-level course to be a problem for admission there. Being from so far away is an ADVANTAGE, because that is a diversity factor. I haven't specifically interviewed Whitman on this point, but long distance telephony is inexpensive, and admission officers are only too happy to telephone counselors or teachers if they have found a promising student and desire to check one anomaly in a student's admission file. </p>