<p>haha, yeah, getting an education from Cal your first semester is like taking a drink from a firehose.</p>
<p>kyledavid80,</p>
<p>it's true that berkeley is trying the best to meet the needs of those students who are eligible for financial aid, but in recent years the amount of "self-help" need is increasing (workstudy and subsidized loans). i like to call these "pseudo" financial aid.</p>
<p>
[quote]
but in recent years the amount of "self-help" need is increasing (workstudy and subsidized loans).
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Berkeley's fin aid goes:</p>
<pre><code>* Scholarships / grants: 71%
* Loans / jobs: 29%
</code></pre>
<p>Look at others:</p>
<p>Cornell:</p>
<pre><code>* Scholarships / grants: 71%
* Loans / jobs: 29%
</code></pre>
<p>JHU:</p>
<pre><code>* Scholarships / grants: 76%
* Loans / jobs: 24%
</code></pre>
<p>Berkeley's grads on average graduate with $14,751 in debt; Stanford's grads with $15,758; Yale's with $14,306. So I don't think Berkeley's financial aid is getting any "worse"; in fact, I daresay it's never been better, as evidenced by the fact that the average % need met is steadily rising (from 90% to 92%, etc.).</p>
<p>Yeah but how much does Berkeley cost (for in-state) and how much do Stanford and Yale cost? </p>
<p>Private universities give out more grants, period. </p>
<p>To OP, choose U Penn.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Yeah but how much does Berkeley cost (for in-state) and how much do Stanford and Yale cost?</p>
<p>Private universities give out more grants, period.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Average grant aid divided by the total cost of attendance:</p>
<p>Berkeley: 12,651/24088: 53%
Stanford: 26,639/49448: 54%</p>
<p>if the OP should choose based on the cost, i think he/she should wait until the FA comes out</p>
<p>for my own experience, I got around $5000 loan from both cornell & penn but $0 loan from cal (regent) so then I decided to come to cal.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Average grant aid divided by the total cost of attendance:</p>
<p>Berkeley: 12,651/24088: 53%
Stanford: 26,639/49448: 54%
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Percentage wise, about the same. However consider this much:</p>
<p>Berkeley only gives full-ride scholarships to athletes. So where do their priorities lie?</p>
<p>My friend at U Penn, whose family is on the lower income level, got almost a full ride-including academic scholarships and grants (both federal and university grants).</p>
<p>Most of the aid from Berkeley is through the federal government, not the school itself. </p>
<p>Private schools have larger funds and endowments (almost twice as big), plus they don't over-pack the class sizes as they do at Cal. Even as a senior (upper divs) many of my classes have 300+ students.</p>
<p>Like someone said earlier, the middle class get screwed in regards to aid at public universities. Go to a private university where they are more able to give you university grants, rather than depending on federal aid.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>^ That's not true...
</p>
<p>Also, I don't know why someone said Cal's undergrad is subpar compared to USC's. No offense, but USC is known for sports, not academics.</p>
<p>But U Penn's undergrad is probably better than both.</p>
<p>
[quote]
got regent at Cal and I pay absolutely nothing for attending college. (My EFC = 0)
[/quote]
</p>
<p>The regents I know at Cal in real life say that Cal only pays a small fraction of their tuition. Compared to the other UCs, it's very, very minimal. Maybe this person's family is poor enough to receive significant need-based aid. Nonetheless, are u saying that the tuition is 100% paid for by a scholarship rather than need-based grants? I highly doubt it.</p>
<p>EFC is calculated based on family's income and economic status.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Berkeley only gives full-ride scholarships to athletes. So where do their priorities lie?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Er, that's not true. Berkeley gives many full-ride scholarships.</p>
<p>
[quote]
My friend at U Penn, whose family is on the lower income level, got almost a full ride-including academic scholarships and grants (both federal and university grants).</p>
<p>Most of the aid from Berkeley is through the federal government, not the school itself.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Again, this lies mostly in the difference between public and private. The federal grants max out at a certain level. Thus, a private school has to make an extra effort to make up the gap. Berkeley doesn't have such a huge gap to cover, since it's half the price of a private.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Private schools have larger funds and endowments (almost twice as big),
[/quote]
</p>
<p>This has been discussed many, many times. Endowment figures are deceptive. Why? Because publics get governmental funding. A university typically spends 5% of its endowment. Berkeley receives $400-500 million/year just in spending aid from the government -- that means that a private school would need an $8-10 billion endowment to match what Berkeley gets from the state. And that's not even taking into consideration med schools, which are very costly and contribute much to the endowment. If you were to include UCSF's, Berkeley's actual endowment would be about $5 billion. And then you'd have to factor in what UCSF gets from the government, and the total "implied" + "actual" endowment would be about $25 billion. Of course, these two have more students to support, but the idea is there.</p>
<p>
[quote]
plus they don't over-pack the class sizes as they do at Cal.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>They don't? Compare these numbers:</p>
<p>Berkeley:
% over 50: 14%
% under 20: 61%</p>
<p>MIT:
% over 50: 14%
% under 20: 61%</p>
<p>Harvard:
% over 50: 11%
% under 20: 69%</p>
<p>
[quote]
Even as a senior (upper divs) many of my classes have 300+ students.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>This is statistically unlikely -- most of the huge classes are in lower-divs. Only about 5% of Berkeley's courses are over 100 students. An in addition to that, all large courses are supplemented with small discussions. This is the same policy at schools such as Stanford, Harvard, Penn, MIT, etc. In fact, there's a discussion on another forum on CC right now about Harvard's large classes.</p>
<p>I think you, like many others, assume that public = underfunded and huge classes = inferior to privates. And that's patently not true.</p>
<p>
[quote]
the middle class get screwed in regards to aid at public universities.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>To be honest, they get screwed even more at the overwhelming majority of private schools, because private schools are 2x the price of publics and the overwhelming majority don't have the funds to help out the poor students, much less the middle class.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Go to a private university where they are more able to give you university grants, rather than depending on federal aid.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>See the above. There's really no big difference.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Also, I don't know why someone said Cal's undergrad is subpar compared to USC's. No offense, but USC is known for sports, not academics.</p>
<p>But U Penn's undergrad is probably better than both.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I wouldn't say that any of those is better than the others for undergrad. They're simply different. The focus here is on a specific program.</p>
<p>
[quote]
The regents I know at Cal in real life say that Cal only pays a small fraction of their tuition.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>The Regents and Chancellor's Scholarship at Cal pays for 100% of your need; if you have the need, it is a full ride. In fact, for in-state students, Cal's financial aid is excellent, often better than privates, which is in part why Cal has many students who were accepted at schools like Penn, Harvard, Stanford, etc. but chose not to attend them.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Er, that's not true. Berkeley gives many full-ride scholarships.
[/quote]
Really, full-ride academic scholarships? Show me a source...I've known perfect SAT, 4.0 students, Regents without full-rides. </p>
<p>
[quote]
Again, this lies mostly in the difference between public and private. The federal grants max out at a certain level. Thus, a private school has to make an extra effort to make up the gap. Berkeley doesn't have such a huge gap to cover, since it's half the price of a private.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Well my friend's sibling went to Berkeley. Same family, same income, right? He however had to take out massive loans because Berkeley didn't even attempt to cover the gap. Private unis can afford to cover the gap. Public can't.</p>
<p>
[quote]
This has been discussed many, many times. Endowment figures are deceptive. Why? Because publics get governmental funding. A university typically spends 5% of its endowment. Berkeley receives $400-500 million/year just in spending aid from the government -- that means that a private school would need an $8-10 billion endowment to match what Berkeley gets from the state. And that's not even taking into consideration med schools, which are very costly and contribute much to the endowment. If you were to include UCSF's, Berkeley's actual endowment would be about $5 billion. And then you'd have to factor in what UCSF gets from the government, and the total "implied" + "actual" endowment would be about $25 billion. Of course, these two have more students to support, but the idea is there.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>The sad part is despite all the government funding and the increased tuition we pay, the majority of our university's funding on student resources is paid by alumni donations. Tuitions pays professors' salaries but student groups/the student learning center/bearwalk/ campus jobs/ everything is paid by alumni donations.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Berkeley:
% over 50: 14%
% under 20: 61%</p>
<p>MIT:
% over 50: 14%
% under 20: 61%</p>
<p>Harvard:
% over 50: 11%
% under 20: 69%
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Haha what is this including, discussion sections with GSIs? Maybe it's my impacted major, but all of my upper div classes have had least 200 people.</p>
<p>
[quote]
This is statistically unlikely -- most of the huge classes are in lower-divs. Only about 5% of Berkeley's courses are over 100 students. An in addition to that, all large courses are supplemented with small discussions. This is the same policy at schools such as Stanford, Harvard, Penn, MIT, etc. In fact, there's a discussion on another forum on CC right now about Harvard's large classes.</p>
<p>I think you, like many others, assume that public = underfunded and huge classes = inferior to privates. And that's patently not true.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Statistically unlikely, but still plausible. Maybe it's the courses I take, but still...it promotes a bad learning environment. </p>
<p>Public universities are underfunded. What about the recent budget cuts? Apparently the governor wants us to beg for more money from alumni because we can't even afford student services on campus. </p>
<p>
[quote]
To be honest, they get screwed even more at the overwhelming majority of private schools, because private schools are 2x the price of publics and the overwhelming majority don't have the funds to help out the poor students, much less the middle class.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Far more grants</p>
<p>This is my fourth year at Cal and I have say, I expected much more than what I got out of it.</p>
<p>Total experience wise, choose U Penn. Even if money doesn't matter, Berkeley undergrads have a harder time getting into graduate school than Ivy Leaguers (they are expected to have higher GPAs, etc.) to get into the same tiered grad schools. (For example the average GPA of a Berkeley undergrad getting into Stanford Law is 4.01, hence they need A+ and As to get in while the average GPA for all admits is around 3.8). It's easier getting LOR from professors when your class is less than 200. The university is just too big to maximize potential on the undergraduate level. They accept more freshman each year, increased registration fees, while California cut their budget spending. So now we have to beg alumni for more money just to pay for the services that undergraduates actually use. Plus living costs are really high relative to other universities'. The housing near campus are very, very old and rundown and over priced. The good ones are far away. If you don't have a car, it's much harder to get to school if you have to live far away. Crime increased recently in the city of Berkeley. Series of armed robberies last semester, a few rapes (that the university failed to notify students about, I found out through a newspaper). GSIs frequently are not fluent enough in English to teach well (this is math and science classes.) They are obviously very smart but hard to understand.</p>
<p>Also, if you want to go to an Ivy for grad school, there's a degree of Ivy incest while Berkeley grad programs tend to dislike their undergrads (rumor verified especially for PhD programs). Thus going to an Ivy might help you gain access to a good grad education.</p>
<p>If the OP wants more research opportunities go to U Penn. URAP at Berkeley = too few spots for numerous applicants. (It seems as if almost every freshman at Berkeley is pre-med, or at least until O-Chem weeds out some of them. )</p>
<p>To NeedAdvice,
Berkeley doesn't give out a GPA that's higher than 4.0 even if you got A+. </p>
<p>Also, it's not true that Berkeley only gives full rides to athletes. I got a full ride and I don't play any sport at all. </p>
<p>Research should be the leading reason to come to Cal. You don't have to get a research position by URAP. In fact, most of the PI's don't bother to post on the URAP website or whatever. They just take whoever ask them for positions. So, if you want to do research, send out e-mails to PI's and you will get one. If you think you are too shy to ask for a position directly, then idk, don't come to Cal.</p>
<p>btw, I got a full ride at Cal & found a position in a lab by myself before I even moved into my dorm. </p>
<p>Always remember, you are only 1 person and since n=1, that is usually a way too small population size to apply any statistical numbers.</p>
<p>To NeedAdvice,</p>
<p>I didn't see your earlier post. To answer your question, yes my family is very poor but I got both around $5,000 loan/school year at Cornell and Penn. </p>
<p>Not only the tuition is paid 100% by the regent scholarship (which comes from various sources that are donated by Berkeley alumni), my living expenses and basically everything are paid by the scholarship. So here's how it works: Berkeley refunds me in the beginning of the semester for about $2500 for my books, traveling and just living expenses like clothes. I live in a dorm and have meal plan and those are not included in the $2500 refund but are paid directly from the aid I have. If I move out next year, Berkeley will give me additional refund for my rental and food (rental refund= ~$750/month)</p>
<p>So really, it is absolutely free for me. I am not a 2400 kid at all. In fact, I don't think I even got 2100 on my SAT (I lived in US for a very short time before I took the test). I did have a decent GPA & a lot of evidences of academic achievement.</p>
<p>Those people who received a smaller scholarship for regent have higher EFC than me. Basically, regents just free you from any loan or work study, but you still need to pay if the fafsa website decides that your family has the ability to contribute a certain amount of money each year. </p>
<p>There's a break down of all the financial aid/scholarship resources I got and most of it, not as you would think, actually comes from alumni donation. I did get things like Cal grant and other gov't aid, but that's only about 30% or less of my whole financial aid package.</p>
<p>
[quote]
To NeedAdvice,
Berkeley doesn't give out a GPA that's higher than 4.0 even if you got A+.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Actually, the LSAC counts A+s as 4.33...even while Berkeley doesn't.
[quote]
Also, it's not true that Berkeley only gives full rides to athletes. I got a full ride and I don't play any sport at all.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>100% due to financial need.</p>
<p>The comparison between Berkeley (or any other UC) versus the privates in terms of financial aid percentages is misleading, considering families with over 90K income are expected to receive no financial aid at all. This isn't the case at the ivy leagues (and other privates maybe). In addition, Berkeley and UCLA has the highest percentage of Pell Grant recepients, and that skews that data a lot when comparing to private universities of how much grant is given.</p>
<p>Also, Berkeley's percentage is of those who do receive aid (excludes non financial aid receiving families), which brings that percentage of need met up quite a lot I'd guess.</p>
<p>These percentages along with other statistics are very misleading, and are generally shown so that Berkeley is put in a good light (obviously the way to go to be perceived prestigious). Consider how Berkeley always compares its graduate academic programs to the Ivy Leagues (that 35 out of 36 programs in the top ten), yet in comparing how well Berkeley graduates do in terms of getting into med and law school, the percentage is compared to the national average of all American universities (and no compared to the Ivy League). Selective comparison.</p>
<p>"Consider how Berkeley always compares its graduate academic programs to the Ivy Leagues (that 35 out of 36 programs in the top ten), yet in comparing how well Berkeley graduates do in terms of getting into med and law school, the percentage is compared to the national average of all American universities (and no compared to the Ivy League). Selective comparison."</p>
<p>Yup, more the reasons to choose UPenn over Cal. The fact is, Cal is not a great place for pre-med education: it's too competitive and there is very little help along the way. However, if you can succeed here as a pre-med, there is little doubt that you will do well in med school.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Really, full-ride academic scholarships? Show me a source...
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Berkeley doesn't release than information, unfortunately. They do have detailed financial aid info in their CDS, though.</p>
<p>If you think that Berkeley is going to give out full merit rides (which I'm assuming you do since you said "100% due to financial need"), then no, it doesn't. Neither do top privates, for the most part. They look at financial need.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I've known perfect SAT, 4.0 students, Regents without full-rides.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>And I know many students with comparable stats with full-rides from Berkeley. (See how much anecdotal evidence accounts for?)</p>
<p>
[quote]
Same family, same income, right? He however had to take out massive loans because Berkeley didn't even attempt to cover the gap.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>That's one example. You can't make a judgment on the whole based on such a little sample.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Private unis can afford to cover the gap.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>No, again, the overwhelming majority cannot. The top privates can. And so can the top publics.</p>
<p>
[quote]
the majority of our university's funding on student resources is paid by alumni donations.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Wrong again. Berkeley's annual budget is ~$1.6 billion. Only between around $105 million comes from private gifts. Much of Berkeley's expenses are paid from the endowment, from outside sources, etc. Academic support, student services, institutional support, etc. all cost hundreds of millions of dollars. Alumni donations wouldn't fit the bill.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Haha what is this including, discussion sections with GSIs?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Nope. Only the class sizes themselves -- doesn't include the subsections.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Maybe it's the courses I take, but still...it promotes a bad learning environment.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I'm pretty sure that it's the courses you take. Of course, it's possible that upper-div courses are sometimes large, but to take nothing but large courses? That's pretty odd for Berkeley.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Public universities are underfunded. What about the recent budget cuts?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>The majority of publics are underfunded. Some, not quite so much. That isn't to say that Berkeley is luxurious. Berkeley struggles to fund everything. But it's one of the few publics that's advantaged by a large endowment, lots of alumni who give back, etc.</p>
<p>The budget cuts are going to hurt, but as it currently stands, the state government pays for only about 4% of Berkeley's annual budget.</p>
<p>
[quote]
This is my fourth year at Cal and I have say, I expected much more than what I got out of it.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>With the ideas you've expressed so far in mind, I daresay you would've been disappointed if you attended Harvard.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Even if money doesn't matter, Berkeley undergrads have a harder time getting into graduate school than Ivy Leaguers
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Source?</p>
<p>
[quote]
Plus living costs are really high relative to other universities'.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>The average costs of Berkeley's living is right around the same as Stanford's, Harvard's, etc.</p>
<p>
[quote]
The housing near campus are very, very old and rundown and over priced.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Such generalizations...</p>
<p>
[quote]
If you don't have a car, it's much harder to get to school if you have to live far away.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>The transportation in Berkeley is awesome, so a car isn't really necessary at all.</p>
<p>
[quote]
GSIs frequently are not fluent enough in English to teach well (this is math and science classes.)
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Yes, because I'm sure you've surveyed all those math and science classes to make such a generalization, right?</p>
<p>
[quote]
URAP at Berkeley = too few spots for numerous applicants.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>You don't have to do research through URAP. Go talk to professors. Go talk to GSIs. Go talk to lecturers, researchers, lab faculty, etc. There's so much research going on at Berkeley, you can easily get in on one thing. The trick is finding them. Berkeley is a major research university, on par with Harvard, Stanford, etc. in research output, so if you can't find any research to get in on, perhaps you shouldn't be at Berkeley.</p>
<p>
[quote]
considering families with over 90K income are expected to receive no financial aid at all.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Source? I know families who make over 100k and still received aid.</p>
<p>Again, Berkeley will cover your demonstrated need.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Berkeley and UCLA has the highest percentage of Pell Grant recepients, and that skews that data a lot when comparing to private universities of how much grant is given.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>No, it doesn't "skew" it. It attests to the level of financial aid that Berkeley gives. And that level is quite high.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Berkeley's percentage is of those who do receive aid (excludes non financial aid receiving families), which brings that percentage of need met up quite a lot I'd guess.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>What percentage? More than 70% of Berkeley's undergrads receive aid. Of those who receive aid, more than 70% is in grants; about 30% is in work-study and loans.</p>
<p>
[quote]
These percentages along with other statistics are very misleading
[/quote]
</p>
<p>No, they aren't, really. Look at the CDS I linked to above -- there's very detailed info on financial aid.</p>
<p>
[quote]
are generally shown so that Berkeley is put in a good light
[/quote]
</p>
<p>So do top privates such as Penn.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Consider how Berkeley always compares its graduate academic programs to the Ivy Leagues (that 35 out of 36 programs in the top ten), yet in comparing how well Berkeley graduates do in terms of getting into med and law school, the percentage is compared to the national average of all American universities (and no compared to the Ivy League). Selective comparison.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Now that's just failure in logic. You compare things that are comparable. You wouldn't compare a tiny LAC to a huge university, would you? You wouldn't compare a hatchback to a BMW, would you? Thus, Berkeley's grad programs are compared to top privates -- because, to be honest, they're better than the majority (if not the best overall). When it comes to med schools, Berkeley still performs above the national average, but it doesn't perform as high as tippy top privates, for reasons already discussed.</p>