@epiphany Did I misunderstand your post that a kid wanting to stay in state doesn’t speak well of their character? Not sure if you meant just leaving their comfort zone or having to leave CA. Living away at school just about any distance from home can be a big change.
The prestige mindset can be a hard thing to shake. Two years ago, we were Blue & Gold eligible, and it looked like a sure thing that S would go to our local UC, tuition free, and live at home. Or maybe, just maybe, he’d get into Pomona, and we could have made that happen on our EFC at that time (which was less than $5k).
Then DH got laid off twice in the same year and ended up with his dream job at almost double his previous salary. Hello, doughnut hole, and since we’d previously been on the edge of low income, there was no way in heck we could meet the new EFC.
Because of the Haider program, UCR was far and away S’s favorite among the UCs. It made little sense for him to consider any other UC, rankings or not. Our new EFC made UCR utterly impossible.
When S told one of his letter writers about UNM, the person was aghast that S wasn’t headed to someplace like Stanford, and we’ve heard variations on that theme both here on CC and elsewhere in meatspace. It’s hard not to answer with a frustrated “Dudes, we can’t afford those places.”
Recently a kid at S’s school tried to needle him because the kid had gotten into Johns Hopkins, and S hadn’t. Didn’t S wish he could have been admitted to such a prestigious school? Well, S, who hadn’t even applied to Hopkins, said “Hey, congrats man, but no, I’m happy with UNM.”
Standing next to S was a friend of his, a frequent rival for things like lead roles and leadership opportunities in the school’s Drama Club and Thespian Society. When the Hopkins kid left, Friend asked S if prestige really didn’t matter to him. S said no, it didn’t, in part because so many of the prestige-focused kids were like that one, hypercompetitive gunners who weren’t very likable.* Friend looked thoughtful for a moment, then said “I’m going to have to think on that. I want the prestige, too, but you’re right, I don’t like a lot of the prestige kids.”
Yes, there’s a lot going on right now that pressures kids, teachers, parents, etc. toward prestige at all costs. If that’s what people want, they get in, and they can pay for it, great! More power to 'em.
We can’t pay for it, even if S got in. The vast majority of the time, however, the difference in educational opportunity, IMHO, isn’t worth the sometimes hundreds of thousands in cost difference.
I got into my top three grad program from Podunk CityName U. Most of the other students were from Ivies or near Ivies. I was just as well prepared as they were, and better prepared than some of them. CA kids who sneer at “lesser” UCs, CSUs and, heaven forfend, CCs, don’t grok that.
*Disclaimer: I know there are awesome, lovely, wonderful families out there with equally awesome, humble, likable kids who go to prestige schools. S’s comment is not meant as a wholesale indictment.
“Californians aiming for a UC may now have to go to UCSC or UCR rather than Cal/UCLA”
Back in my day you could only apply to ONE UC. Wasn’t sure which ONE UC to choose (Irvine was only 15 minutes away and boring…didn’t want to be a commuter)…picked UCLA (not my dream school but more for the “name and peer pressure”) as a Biology Major. Didn’t make it. No UC Merced yet…was redirected to Santa Cruz (really far away and didn’t have Bio-Med. or Business Administration–only had “written evaluations” then instead of grades.), and Riverside (much closer and had Bio-Med (Now Thomas Haider Program and Business Administration (Berkeley only other school to have it)). Had the opportunity to play competitive tennis and made the UCR team as well but wasn’t on scholarship like my roommate freshman year and academics was my priority, so competitive sports had to end. The UCR Bio-Med (Now Thomas Haider Program) was EXTREMELY COMPETITIVE…really a bloodbath! Switched to Business Administration (not sure you can still do that?) and received a top notch education (many programs in US News Top 100) at UC Riverside! Wouldn’t change anything for the world!!
Back in my day, people applied to ONLY ONE UC…if you didn’t make it there, you MANNED UP and went to one of the few other choices offered and realized it was a blessing to get into ANY UC at all!!
It really should go back to how it used to be…would simplify the admissions process so much and eliminate a lot of the griping on here about not getting in to ANY UC (although probably only 4 or 5 max were applied to). Apply to ONLY ONE UC and then if you don’t make it, then go to where you are redirected, or head OOS, to the Privates, Community College and transfer, or whatever option you would like to choose!!
Our college counsellor just posted this article about kids transfering from 2 year community colleges into UCs and other schools:
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/05/education/learning/community-colleges-middle-class-families.html
@astute12 – love your gardener post… it’s what public education in America is (should be?) all about!
Geez, apologies for soap-boxing.
Yes, the the gardener post is awesome. Getting a college degree can permanently change the financial trajectory of entire generations of families.
My great-grandfather was a butcher, the kind who delivered meat to homes and restaurants from a horse-drawn wagon. On the other side, my grandfather was an auto mechanic. I am not dissing those professions AT ALL, but they made for the kind of life where you had one pair of shoes and maybe two sets of clothes, the good set for church and school, and the much rattier set that you changed into for the rest of the time.
The butcher’s son went into the military, a naval aviator who used his GI Bill benefits to get a teaching credential. He taught music and retired as a school principal. His daughter, my mom, was born going to college.
The mechanic’s son, my dad, worked his way through college stocking the shelves of a grocery store at night. This meant that both of my parents had college degrees, Master’s degrees, in fact. By the time they retired, they were both making six digits, more money than the mechanic or the butcher ever could have dreamed of.
My sibs and I were all born going to college, too, if that’s what we wanted. We all have Master’s degrees or higher. My son wants to be a doctor or maybe a PA. My sister’s eldest is looking at engineering.
College can make a permanent difference that spans generations.
Some of you make it seem as though it’s so easy (translation: affordable) to go to a UC or Cal State out of the area, when that’s just not true. Yes, first world problem, but a real problem nonetheless. The Cal States out of the area were NOT affordable for us. UCI was not affordable. UCSD was marginally affordable (local school). And my son got Pell and Cal Grant. I assume we’re not the only ones that couldn’t afford to pay 15K for room and board at Cal States/UCs.
What can the UC system do to better manage the expectations of applicants? Specifically, what should UC be communicating about the middling campuses that used to be “safeties” like San Diego, Irvine, Santa Barbara (or others) and how can it effectively get this message across? It seems to me that the frustration is coming from a very specific sliver of applicants who have high stats and reason to believe they have a chance, based on available information from Naviance (or published class profiles).
The lower-stats kids who aren’t shooting for the stars - they aren’t the problem. It’s the high-stats kids shooting for “safety” UCs who are feeling dissed and I think rightfully so. A kid whose stats are good enough for an Ivy isn’t wrong to feel robbed that San Diego is beyond his reach. What made him think San Diego was a safety? I think the onus is on the UC to find away to end that fantasy - apparently shared by many families posting here so the misconception is not a fluke.
How can the UCs better communicate the selectivity of its various campuses so that families can re-set expectations and plan appropriately?
More transparency in admission statistics, particularly by division and major. For transfer students, admitted student stats and admission rates are published by major: https://www.universityofcalifornia.edu/infocenter/transfers-major . It would be better if frosh admission stats were also stratified by major within each campus.
Put a link to the UC weighted-capped GPA calculation on any page that references high school GPAs as used by UC. High school students using their schools’ weighted GPAs probably get overconfident when comparing their weighted GPAs to the GPAs found on UC web sites, even though that comparison is invalid and will typically result in overreaching.
No. Entitlement does not speak well. And stubbornness regarding mere comfort does not speak well. That has nothing to do with anxiety/nervousness about a change in location or distance from family. Not to want to encounter any change in your cushy life at age 18? Not a good sign. It’s a sign of over-indulgence and self-indulgence.
And I will add that in my experience, it’s the parents who are more concerned with the move away, and often project that onto the student, who then internalizes parental anxiety. I had a ridiculous experience with this last night. Anyone who wants more information about this can PM me. Just one of many, many examples I can give you.
“Because of the Haider program, UCR was far and away S’s favorite among the UCs. It made little sense for him to consider any other UC, rankings or not. Our new EFC made UCR utterly impossible.”
Yep, UCR and other UC’s getting quite expensive…congrats on UNM…sounds like that is going well!!
“The prestige mindset can be a hard thing to shake”
True…it is overrated (I never cared much for it…only for a great academic education)…may only help you in that “first job”…what you do in college and how you prove yourself in your job after with passion, persistence, solid work ethic, adaptability, people skills, and so forth most important. I got into USC back in the day, but didn’t want to burden my parents financially since I had no scholarship. My father went there, but he preferred I go to a UC Due to much less cost along with a top notch education since the UC System is one of the best public systems in the world.
@ucbalumnus That’s a great link for the transfer information. You are right, it would be a real help to have information like that for freshman, especially for families going through the process the first time. That link provides GPA by major, and acceptance and yield rates by major. Add SAT scores for freshman and people would have a much better feel for their chances - as long as people knew where to look.
The problem with the old admissions system - apply to first choice school and if you don’t get in you are redirected - is that the redirection after a failed attempt to get into Berkeley or UCLA would be to Santa Cruz, Riverside or Merced, not to the second tier UC quartet. Irvine, San Diego, Davis and Santa Barbara would have enough first choice applications to not need to take redirects. That is an issue for most people since that is not the result they are looking for - they want access to the middle tier if they don’t get into UCLA or Berkeley. But I agree, the current system is not ideal. My daughter applied to seven campuses because it such a crap shoot.
From what I remember, one of the old systems in some years was that you could apply specifically to up to three campuses, but could get redirected to another one if you got shut out of those you specifically applied to. I did know someone who applied only to Berkeley, got redirected to some other campus, chose to go to community college, and transferred to Berkeley two years later.
Switching to a ranked choice system now may work:
- Applicants make one application to any number of UC campuses/divisions/majors, ranked in order of preference. Applicants may include each campus up to twice with different divisions/majors (does not have to be consecutive).
- All applications are read and scored by two or three readers according to the usual procedure (as described in the Hout report) and put in buckets for their preferred campuses/divisions/majors.
- Each campus/division/major sets a cutoff based on its capacity and yield expectations.
- Starting with the one with the highest cutoff, remove those below the cutoff and reassign them to their next choice campus/major/division. Any without a next choice go to the unallocated bucket.
- Readjust cutoffs for each remaining campus/division/major to reflect the influx of next choice applications moved there.
- Repeat with the remaining bucket with the highest cutoff until all buckets have been processed.
- If there is remaining capacity in the system, go through the unallocated bucket and match in order of reading score to the closest matching campus/division/major to the applicant's apparent preferences that has remaining capacity. (Perhaps go through the "top 9%" group first to retain that program.)
Then each admitted applicant would get one UC offer at the applicant’s highest ranked campus/division/match that admitted him/her. Some who do not get admitted into any of their choices get admitted to (probably) UC Merced.
Such a system would be helped by ensuring that FA across campuses is reasonably similar (probably not hard, since they do not currently differ by that much). However, it may be that there will be less in the way of merit scholarships, since the UCs would not be competing against each other. But they may still offer some to compete against non-UC schools for the top applicants.
Apparently, the UC system guarantees admission to the top 8% students from every high school in CA,
Having said that, The UCs turn down many, many outstanding students from any given high school.
Also, some highly regarded, high achieving high schools may produce more highly prepared students that can not be accommodated. For example, THe UC may not take 80 kids from Palo Alto and one from Martinez.
They have to distribute the admissions across every high school. That leaves many qualify students out of the running.
Ofen times students may be denied, Berkeley, UCLA, San Diego etc but they are offered a spot in Merced or Riverside etc. That is one way to meet their 'promise" of taking the top 8%. It is a guarantee to be accepted into the system but not a campus of your choice.
Finally, CA has 33 million inhabitants, and we have only built one UC school in the past 30 years. ( Merced).
The other UCs have taken all the growth and now a general ed class at Berkeley or UCLA may have 1500 + students.
One huge lecture hall with satellite classes with big screens beaming the lecture.
It may be time for online credits
Seeing as how the largest lecture hall (Moore) at UCLA holds about 400 people, they don’t have 1500+ size classes that I’m aware of. Berkeley does have some big ones.
OK, here’s a thought experiment: Imagine that starting in the year 2020, UC admissions changes to a unitary application system. Students can indicate choice of major and for impacted or limited majors indicate a 2nd choice major; and/or can indicate a choice of broad category of major (example: “life sciences”). Other than that, assignment to a campus or program is entirely random. A kid with a 36 ACT has the same chance of being assigned to a program at UC Merced as a kid with a 26 ACT – and that 26 ACT student has as much of chance of being assigned to a program at Berkeley as any other. Other than applying to relatively obscure, underenrolled majors there is not much a student can do to impact chances.
Now, fast forward 7 years, to students applying in the year 2027. The random assignment plan has been in effect since these kids were in middle school, and throughout their high school years they have seen some of the smartest, high achieving students assigned to Merced and Riverside, and kids who had a more relaxed view of high school and took few AP’s end up at UCLA or Berkeley. Luck of the draw. So what does the system look like? How does this impact overall attitudes toward the schools, as well as the educational environment at each school?
I’d add that there would be no change in graduate admissions – so quality of graduate offerings would stay the same – and the community college transfer route would also remain about the same, with some geographic preferences built in so that families it would be realistically possible for a student to plan to remain living in their parents’ home for 4 years of college, assuming reasonable proximity to a UC campuses.
@jototo – you misunderstand how the UC system work, because you don’t understand “eligibility in a statewide context”. It is top 9%, not 8%, and there currently is no admissions advantage to a student who is in the top 9% at their local high school over a student whose academic index (combination of test scores & GPA) gives them statewide eligibility. However, students who have overall higher stats (GPA & test scores) are at an advantage over others for admission to the top schools.
Here is a way some students will game the system to get to the campus of their choice, but it depends on their actual desired major not being impacted (and therefore easy to change into) and their campus of choice having a unique non-impacted major. Basically, they specify the non-impacted major that is unique to their campus of choice (e.g. rhetoric or Celtic studies at Berkeley), get admitted, enroll, and then change to their non-impacted desired major. Of course, that only works until too many others try to game the system that way and the campus-unique majors become impacted.
Here’s an idea. The UCs control their own application, have all their admissions data, and students enter all their a-g classes, grades, scores, choice of major, etc in the application.
It would take some data crunching and programming, but the UCs could add to the application a display of each student’s chances for each college and major. It would need a big disclaimer that these chances are based on last year. But, it could be more fine-grained than the chances adult CC posters give to student based on fairly broad GPA ranges.
There was a video presented to the UCB Faculty Senate on the effectiveness of the LoR requests. That presentation showed how dramatically chances vary based on the bucket they are put in based on only GPA and scores.
Before submitting the application, students could adjust their university and major choices in the application to a risk level they are comfortable with. And, for some students, the chances would be a heads-up that they need to apply to some CSUs or other colleges.