<p>KelsMom, you have hit the nail on the head for me (the OP). We (I should say, "she") is in a situation where this school offers an academic program that seems like it was tailor made for her, the campus is BEAUTIFUL...there are many, many things about the school which she has fallen in love with. But the rep is frightening for her. I find it SAD that this even has to be a discussion. On one hand, I know that there will be plenty of kids for her to hang with...but I also know that she may have to work at seeking that group out. It may make life more difficult for her. You all know, as a parent, you just want your kid to be happy!!</p>
<p>In theory, my D. should have found my alma mater (#1 LAC) perfect. Academically, it had everything she wanted, and she was recruited. Paid two visits, and it quickly dropped to the near bottom of the list. It wasn't so much that the students (in her case, women) started drinking before dinner on Thursday night, and took flasks to an a capella concert. Or that the dorm reaked of sour vomit and alcohol (I was pretty shocked when I dropped her off, but said nothing.) Rather it was a conversation she had. The entryway folks complained that the folks in the next entryway were roaring drunk at least three times a week, very loud, threw things out windows, etc. So my d. asked (including several who didn't drink at all), "well, what if you don't want to live next door to folks who are roaring drunk three times a week?" She says they looked at her as if she was from another planet.</p>
<p>Well, the harsh reality is that most of the best and brightest at a school like W are just getting their ticket punched so they can move on to Wall Street or law school, etc. You really don't need to learn that much in college that you don't already know to be able to get by in either venue. So having a good time and cramming for exams/papers is a reasonable way of life. Ballmer is head of Microsoft today because he played a lot of cards and drank with Bill Gates in the dorm.</p>
<p>And Gates is where he is today 'cause Mom had a few drinks with Gerstner. </p>
<p>I'm no teetotaller, and I don't mind if folks have the places to go and get themselves totally polluted, if that's their persuasion. The sad part of it, however, is when everyone around them is forced to endure it, whether they are of the same persuasion or not. (I even think it would be a fine idea to restart frats at my alma mater, locate 'em a couple of miles from campus, and let those who wish to get as sloshed as they like. Just don't inflict it on others. Fortunately, my d. found schools with better programs in what she was interested in, without the alcohol haze. And I expect others could do so as well, if they looked hard enough.)</p>
<p>"most of the best and brightest at a school like W are just getting their ticket punched so they can move on to Wall Street or law school"</p>
<p>And you know this how? (It's easy to guess: most likely intra-anal knowledge.)</p>
<p>mini, that turned me off from Williams too! Because it is so isolated, the only thing to do is drink copious amounts of alcohol. I would have been fine with it if there had been other things to do, but when I visited, it seemed that most people drank and the ones who didn't weren't necessarily having the best college experience.</p>
<p>I don't think it is a function of location. My son's recruiting visit to W was actually the least alcohol-oriented of all. At his city-Ivy, with plenty to do, drinking is the activity of choice for most students.</p>
<p>paying3tuitions: I salute you and thank you for that positive, solutions-based post, because I was starting to get really depressed about this thread.</p>
<p>It reminds me that at my older son's school, there are lots of kids up at all hours of the night programming, doing psets, playing computer games, doing labs, etc. Some school facilities are open, because they are realistic about the kids' "weird-shifting".</p>
<p>I wonder if possibly part of the problem is that many colleges keep 'banker's hours' but the kids do not. What if colleges acknowledge that a fair amount of students maintain a 9 to 5 schedule -- that is, go to bed at 9 am, raring to go at 5 pm? And that they should schedule activities, classes, workshops accordingly? What if they had dedicated instructors/professors of various departments running all-night poetry slams, midnight astrophysics, 2 a.m. online math, 24-hr open labs, etc.?</p>
<p>It's inspiring to imagine a 24-hr active campus, with instructors available. (on a personal note, it is a dream of mine to become a college art instructor -- I can imagine running Night 'Life Drawing', Evening Outdoor Painting (because the light is so beautiful), Weekend Sculpture-athon -- bring your sleeping bag, sorry to go off on this tangent)</p>
<p>Anyway, thanks p3t for that positive scenario about performing arts!</p>
<p>A.M. (who's glad #2S is into theater and music)</p>
<p>A large number of Williams students move on to Wall Street and professional schools. In my experience with both, which is fairly extensive, they are looking at a means to an end. Hard drinking is an extensive part of the Wall Street life for young associates. Read any of the insider books on the subject. The atmosphere is basically frat house squared.</p>
<p>Studying -- or living for that matter -- in a country village environment is clearly not for everyone; however, it amazes me that those who prefer an urban buzz or suburban complacency over rural serenity conclude that there is nothing to do in the country but drink yourself into oblivion.</p>
<p>Kids who are inclined to substance abuse can find plenty of companions at any college. Conversely, I challenge the assumption that a rural environment is any more encouraging to alcoholism.</p>
<p>There is *plenty * to do in the country. It may not be what the city mouse likes to do, but, come on, give the freshair crowd some credibility. </p>
<p>For my son, a recent graduate of Williams and a light drinker -- the draw of the countryside, the seasons, the mountains, the starry nights, the snowy days, the autumn extravaganza, the leafy summers, the bursting springs -- was enormously gratifying. Prior to landing in Williamstown he had only ever lived in mega million cities and, as expected post-graduation, he's back in an urban environment. He told me the other day that although he's enjoying his city life, he misses the peace of the Berkshires.</p>
<p>I must have been in Williams residence halls dozens of times over a period of four years and never found one that "reaked of sour vomit and alcohol." Yes, kids drink and yes, some drink more than is good for them. But fear mongering warnings that your offspring will be sucked into a vortex of Lost Weekend type alcoholism is a gross misunderstanding of the culture at Williams.</p>
<p>Williams, and other remotely located campuses, are not for everyone. But those who like them, love them and the assumption that country living = dipsomania is inaccurate and insulting.</p>
<p>I hope we will be spared a litany of bingeing statistics and horror story links to the campus newpaper. I know, I know. Bad things happen at good colleges; ALL of them. I'm sure if I had the inclination I could dig up dirt on any school that would set your hair on end.</p>
<p>But from a parent of a child who actually spent four wonderful years in a warmly supportive and intellectually stimulating environment, I can't let these negative generalities go unchallenged.</p>
<p>PS to Anudduhmom, One of my son's favorite memories was walking home from the art studio through deserted Williamstown (perfectly safe by the way) in the wee hours of the morning in a crisp and clear Winter's night, the sky ablaze with stars.</p>
<p>^^ Oh my gosh, what a beautiful post, momrath.</p>
<p>It seems as if, due to your son's enduring memory, he might have encountered the gift for eloquence from you.</p>
<p>Congratulations on his graduation and all the best to both of you.</p>
<p>I'm sorry -- that should have read 'inherited the gift of eloquence'.</p>
<p>AnnuduhMom, clearly not showing any gift of eloquence before morning coffee...</p>
<p>Question-- Do some schools attract students in part BECAUSE of their party-hard reputation?</p>
<p>My best friend lives in an area that sends a lot of kids to our alma mater, and feels strongly that it does attract a jock-ish, heavy-partying student body (again of course that's a generalization). I'd like to think people choose more with academics and career preparation in mind. College is a huge financial commitment, and I doubt most parents would be willing to shell out four years of tuition if the kids are just going to fritter it away partying, and that goes for ANY school. </p>
<p>Years ago, I knew nothiing of our college's reputation before I got there, and it turned out that drinking WAS definitely an issue. The school provided alternatives, but most students considered them out of the norm and few would partake. Short of abandoning the greek system, the administration has tried very hard to improve the situation. There are definitely alternatives, and there will be many bright kids whose weekends don't revolve around partying, though the atmosphere and reputation are still there.</p>
<p>A weekend visit would definitely be in order, keping in mind that you're basing opinions partly on your host and their crowd.</p>
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Question-- Do some schools attract students in part BECAUSE of their party-hard reputation?
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<p>Absolutely. For years, in California, the partiers headed for San Diego State. I knew so many that chose SDSU because of it's party atmosphere. I think it is still true today, but not sure.</p>
<p>For those that can get into a UC, unfortunately UCSB has become well know as a huge drinking and drugging campus. It makes me so sad because it is my alma mater. I have defended SB's good name until recently. Speaking to a SB sophomore about the campus, he tells me that the reputation is absolutely true now and several local kids applied there because that is what they were looking for in a school. So sad to say..............</p>
<p>I think a visit most Thurs, Fri or Sat nights would tell the tale.........</p>
<p>There are literally dozens of colleges that have developed programs that have been shoen to have positive impacts on college binge drinking - ranging from total campus bans (University of Oklahoma) to social norms marketing (Western Washingon University; Hobary & William Smith); to heavy regulation by RAs, to disciplining of suppliers (i.e. frats), to close cooperation with local law enforcement, to (a few) effective educational campaigns. The all require stick-to-itevness, creativity, and money, and admission of a problem to begin (alcoholics, and with them, alcoholic enablers, are often in denial.)</p>
<p>One of the problems is that many school administrations are unclear as to what they wish to accomplish: minimize lawsuits or bad publicity? cut down on binge drinking? reduce public drinking? reduce availability? educate students? reduce long-term consequences? One might have very different strategies depending on the choice of goals, and they may come into conflict with each other. (and this leaves out the question of who gets admitted to these alcoholic havens to begin with.)</p>
<p>As a professional, I am actually more concerned about long-term chronic consequences than I am about short-term problems. As noted, I think well-informed students and families have many options, and can make other choices, if the binge environment is not what they choose. There are always lots of good choices available. And the reality is that most bingers will not end up with lifelong alcohol-related problems.</p>
<p>However, a subset of them will become heavy drinkers, and of them, roughly 60% will become alcohol dependent in their lives if they aren't so already. At my alma mater, roughly 1 out of 8 graduates will become alcohol dependent, with the sequence of consequences (including substantial morbidity and mortality) already laid out. It is substantially higher than 1 out of 8 for males, and for white students. I find it frankly inexcusable that a school with a topnotch psychology department and a first-rate program in genetics and "neurosciences", and enormous financial resources, and an alumni base that would back them to the hilt, and trustees who have twice called special unscheduled meetings to figure out what to do about the torrent of alcohol, can't do a better job at education.</p>
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At my alma mater, roughly 1 out of 8 graduates will become alcohol dependent, with the sequence of consequences (including substantial morbidity and mortality) already laid out. It is substantially higher than 1 out of 8 for males, and for white students.
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<p>It’s exactly this kind of irresponsible conflating and extrapolating of statistics that I would consider fear mongering. Never has there been a study that indicates 1 out of 8 Williams graduates will become alcohol dependent. Nor has such a study been done on any other college. You might as well say that 1 of 8 will die in a car accident, get divorced or prefer Pepsi to Coke. Somewhere there is an appropriate statistic to indicate whatever outcome suits your agenda, but to choose a college on this kind of “prediction” is inane.</p>
<p>If I consider my son and his closest 7 friends, not one has shown any disposition to becoming alcohol dependent. That goes for the next 8 too. Who knows where life will lead them, but if they do turn to drink or drugs it won’t be due to their four years in Williamstown.</p>
<p>Williams, like most coed colleges, has done a considerable amount of studying and surveying of the use of alcohol and other substances. Unlike many other schools, Williams has been transparent in sharing the data, which has led to a “are you still beating your wife syndrome.” I.e, they wouldn’t be probing if they didn’t have a problem. So instead of getting credit for addressing substance abuse, they instead get a bash for revealing that it exists. In fact, they are doing a lot and from my personal experience with how the Class of 07 has fared three months into the real world, they have been extremely successful.</p>