Campus Visit Tour: Final Stop UPenn

Parents Forum
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<p>Twinmom....while my comment is NOT scientific, statistical, or factual....I am gonna make an inference based on JUST my own D's experience with UPenn. I am sure SATs matter but it is not like that is the most important thing and I definitely believe they look at the applicants wholistically. I say this because my D got in RD (which has a very low admit rate since they take so many in ED) and she was selected as one of 100 Ben Franklin Scholars. While her SAT scores were very good, they were not in the stratosphere that I read of MANY CC applicants to elite colleges. So, her SATs were in the ballpark to be considered but surely were not her standout factor. Surely LOTS of kids who applied and got in had higher SATs but she was still in a small select group that got admitted and even smaller group still for the Ben Franklin Scholar. So, it wasn't the SATs. Low SATs would hurt but otherwise, you just need ones in the ballpark to not knock you out. So many have solid SATs that it has to be the OTHER STUFF that is looked at that sets you apart. So, it seems logistical to me that she was looked at wholistically and that her SATs were not what impacted the decision but they also did not keep her out of the running. So, my inkling here is that your SATs must be in the ballpark for a school like Penn but need not be at the top of the heap. You need a solid score to be a realistic applicant but after that, 80 points here or there between you and the next guy is not the big deal....it is the other criteria that will come into play. Way too many kids have very good SAT scores for that to have the big impact on yay or nay. If your kid is in the mid 50% range of accepted students at that school, he/she is an appropriate candidate on the testing front. After that, the rest IS wholistic. If two strong students's files are side by side and student A has 60 points higher SAT score than student B but student B is more accomplished in and out of the classroom beyond simply being great at the SAT, that sixty points is not gonna be the kicker, but the other stuff/factors will be. </p>

<p>Susan</p>

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<p>Thanks Soozie.
Do you think being from Vermont helped at all as a geographic edge? (I guess the answer to all these questions is - who knows?)</p>

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<p>twinmom- I would say the campus overall is more liberal, but the conservatives are very vocal, so it's not swayed too far one direction or the other. After all, we have Wharton, so Penn attracts more money grubbing young republicans than your avg school ;) In truth, rather than being labelled as "liberal" or "conservative," I've found Penn students who are politically motivated tend to be more focused on an individual cause than an ideology.</p>

<p>Of course, no one knows for sure what sways admissions, but the school tends to emphasize ECs and Essays, and I believe it. Penn seems mainly interested in two criteria: 1) the diversity of its students, so if you have something about you that makes you unique (like you live in Alaska, or head a specialized school group), and 2) interest in Penn. You can tell by the ED admit rate that they crave students for whom Penn is a first choice, so when you're doing the essays, make sure you do your research and know WHY Penn is the place for you, and why you will be an asset to the school.</p>

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<p>In the info session, the adcom told us that 75% applicants to Penn have the credentials to do well there, so the essays (but NOT the interviews) play a big role. She especially emphasized the importance of the "Why Penn?" essay, going so far as to warn students about the generic essays they receive from kids who forget to replace "the other" college's name with "Penn" before sending it to them, that their applications would be sent on to "other college"...she was joking but the kids got the point.</p>

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<p>Twinmom, I have no idea to what extent geograhic location had to do with admittance. I think schools do look for diverse student bodies but with so many qualified applicants, I am not sure that the state we were from is THAT big of a push in. I think being from a rural area can be seen positively (like not another one of the thousand applicants from Westchester County as an example) but is balanced out by the "advantage" of being from a well known prep school or suburban public. So, you have kids from schools that send MANY kids to these elite colleges.....though those kids' drawback is that they are sort of competing against one another...yet, the colleges still take lots from their schools....and then a kid like mine who was the only student in the whole high school to go to an Ivy in her year, but by the same token, colleges have not heard of our public school and I have yet to see Yale or Princeton take anyone who has applied, including valedictorians and salutatorians. So, while rural state might get one check on the file in the plus column, it is likely balanced out by kids coming from schools that the elite colleges have heard of and believe are well prepared, etc. </p>

<p>I think if you were to say that my kid being from Vermont was her "tip factor" (which I personally do not believe), then she did not have to be selected as one of the Ben Franklin Scholars, but simply admitted to round out the "states" in the freshmen class profile. So, I believe they look at the whole picture with a candidate.</p>

<p>I agree about the essays and I must say that for EVERY school, my child wrote SPECIFICALLY why she wanted to attend THAT school. Her Why X College essay DIFFERED between all 8 of her schools. And if a school did not have an essay on this topic, she still wrote them why she wanted to attend. </p>

<p>My feeling for elite schools is that naturally you have to have test scores and grades and rank and challenging courseload to be considered. To play the game, one must assess if they have those things in the ballpark for that school. But after that (which does bring them TO the gate), all the other stuff is going to factor in to separate one qualified kid from the next. So, I don't think the fact that some kid had 80 more points on the SAT than another kid but the kid whose SAT was 80 lower (but still in range for UPenn) has lots else going for him....the essays, achievements, ECs, recs, leadership, personality....that will possibly win out over the 80 points in SAT difference. They want to admit a "person"....and there is way more to a person than simply having the right stats. How is this kid going to add to our class? By the way, UPenn was just about the only school my D did not interview because they had no alum interviewers in this area. </p>

<p>In the end, for my kid, while she considered Penn enough to apply, it was not that high on her list. Her favorites were not ordered by prestige but more by desire/interest. Thus, in the end, when April came, and she was narrowing her acceptances down to where she might go, Penn did not make it into her final three that she returned to, though two that did are not ranked as high in terms of prestige. She does not care about the prestige factor. Penn, for her, was bigger and more urban feeling than her other schools, and since she did have a choice, she then ruled Penn out. </p>

<p>Susan</p>

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<p>quiltguru:
I visited Oberlin in April with S. Although he was only interested in the conservatory, there were several kids in our info session who asked lots of questions about the double degree program. Based on what I heard, I can hardly imagine a better place for science+music, as both areas are among Oberlin's strongest and the logistics appear manageable.</p>

<p>A music degree from the conservatory requires audition and specific acceptance to the conservatory, but after that, there seems to be a way to get your foot in through the back door to a degree in the college without going through a separate application and admissions process. It doesn't work the other way, though, so your D's initial application to either the conservatory or the college would be dependent on whether she's interested in double degree or science degree with music lessons and performance opportunities. The latter option is available, but as previously mentioned by others, students who are not enrolled in a conservatory degree program should not expect to get the best applied teachers (may be advanced students) or all the classes they want. All of the instrumental and vocal ensembles appear to be open to non-conservatory students by audition, but I would certianly question whether this works in reality or if the conservatory students typically fill all the ensemble positions.</p>

<p>Overall, S and I both really liked Oberlin. The campus is pretty, with a nice mix of old and new, extremely clean, and well-maintained. The location would be a disadvantage for someone looking for urban opportunities, but there is access to the city via shuttle to the airport then Cleveland public transportation into town.</p>

<p>One final thought: Quirkiness and diversity are the norm at Oberlin, and it is definitely not for everyone. My ultra-liberal S who has been raised in the Bible Belt felt more at home there than he does at home. My words just can't do justice here, so you really have to visit to get a feel for the Oberlin culture.</p>

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<p>Thanks Muppetcoat. Not even sure yet if either of my two are interested in Penn!
Susan - You make some very good points as usual. I have no doubt that having met (and read so much about) your daughter, she would have gotten into all of her schools even if she was from Westchester. I'm not surprised at her final choices, it would have been kind of hard to ski in Philadelphia! :)</p>

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<p>Twinmom, you're too kind. I think my daughter was a solid candidate at selective colleges but not more so than a zillion kids out there plus ones I read about on here. </p>

<p>Penn has a club ski team and my D and I met with three members of that team on our visit. True, they don't ski in New England but they still race. She wanted her schools to have some kind of a ski team but that alone was not the major point in picking her schools. So, she was content with a club team, if it did not have varsity. She just did not want a school with NO ski racing as she was unwilling to give that up. But in the end, I guess even though she picked Brown for many reasons, it does turn out that they have a varsity team that she got on, train two mornings per week on a small ski hill in MA and then race every weekend in New England. They were Eastern Champions and second in Nationals. So, she certainly loves that experience over what Penn's ski team would be but that alone was not the main deciding factor. She weighed many facets of each college. As mentioned, the drawback for Penn for her was size and the urban feel but she liked it enough to apply. It had better offerings in her area of interest, architecture, (connected to a grad school) but when choosing a school, you have to weigh so many pros and cons and find the one that best matches enough of what you want and just how you feel on the campus and so forth. Brown is turning out to have been a great match for her. </p>

<p>Susan</p>

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<p>Quiltguru and Saintofme, </p>

<p>Thanks for the discussion about Penn and music, especially for the link to the music article. Very interesting. My D is presently a grad student at Penn and sings in the University Choir as well as the larger group. She says they are an eclectic group of singers, ranging from undergrads to grad students to faculty to members of the community. She auditioned first for the larger choral society, then was asked to join the University Choir. She is not now pursuing a degree in music, though she was a music major (double major) as an undergrad. </p>

<p>DD is very happy at Penn, though the grad student experience would be quite different from the undergrad. She loves the campus, thinks the students are intriguing, and is enthralled by the opportunities for musical excursions with the Philadelphia Orchestra and Curtis right there.</p>

<p>Concerning the other schools, a dear friend's son just graduated in theater from NWestern, and loved every minute of it. He rarely even came home for breaks and is now in NY seeking acting work.</p>