<p>My DD took BC calc junior year. She got the hardest grading teacher at a difficult school, and got a C+. But she got a 5 on the AP exam. She is interested in engineering, among other things. Will the AP score clue admissions officers in to how hard the class was, if they don't already know(its not impossible they know, this is a well known school that sends lots of applicants to major engineering programs on the east coast)?</p>
<p>(oops, title should be "a high AP score"</p>
<p>Maybe you should ask your counselor to mention it in his/her letter since in case they don’t notice. </p>
<p>If they do notice, it’s definitely a huge improvement from just having a C+. Should clue them in on the difficulty, I think.</p>
<p>High scores always help, but from other threads on this forum about this same question, there seem to be two different opinions:</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>And the other:</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>I would be inclined to agree with the second opinion more—your GPA is the “foundation” of your application, and even a high test score on a test on one single day will not reverse and cancel out what you did at school for an entire year. Nonetheless, if your school and the calculus class specifically are notoriously difficult, then this will be taken into account, and the C+ will probably not be considered in the same light as a C+ as a notoriously easy or grade-inflated school.</p>
<p>Here are some other threads to look at:</p>
<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/747084-ap-score-grade-question.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/747084-ap-score-grade-question.html</a>
<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/ap-tests-preparation/489985-will-ap-score-make-up-low-grade.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/ap-tests-preparation/489985-will-ap-score-make-up-low-grade.html</a>
<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/high-school-life/518852-high-ap-score-low-grade.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/high-school-life/518852-high-ap-score-low-grade.html</a>
<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/sat-act-tests-test-preparation/684233-will-good-sat-ap-exam-scores-make-up-ok-grade-class.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/sat-act-tests-test-preparation/684233-will-good-sat-ap-exam-scores-make-up-ok-grade-class.html</a>
<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/sat-act-tests-test-preparation/59929-distinguishing-between-ap-course-grade.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/sat-act-tests-test-preparation/59929-distinguishing-between-ap-course-grade.html</a>
<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/ap-tests-preparation/713635-ap-test-grade-vs-gpa.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/ap-tests-preparation/713635-ap-test-grade-vs-gpa.html</a></p>
<p>Unfortunately, when students get a C+ in a class and a 5 on the AP test, the situation is usually not that the teacher graded really hard. Usually it’s just that the student didn’t bother trying to get a good grade because they decided the class was beneath them, so that’s what an admissions officer will generally assume.</p>
<p>Having said that, if your school is very difficult, that will be taken into account. Add in some good teacher reccomendations, and that may well make up for the C+.</p>
<p>“Unfortunately, when students get a C+ in a class and a 5 on the AP test, the situation is usually not that the teacher graded really hard. Usually it’s just that the student didn’t bother trying to get a good grade because they decided the class was beneath them, so that’s what an admissions officer will generally assume.”</p>
<p>That was most definitely not the case here. Jesus Christ, she took BC Calc as a Junior, how many kids nationwide do that? She worked her behind off on this class.</p>
<p>I understand it’s not the case here. But college admissions officers simply do not have the time to check every C+ and see if maybe there’s a good reason for it. They will just say “eww a C+” and move on with the application. It sucks, but I wouldn’t be doing you any favors by pretending that won’t happen.</p>
<p>But most importantly, it won’t ruin her chances anywhere.
One anomaly will do little to nothing if she generally has good grades.</p>
<p>^^^^^^</p>
<p>Correct, I should’ve made that clearer. It will have SOME effect, but no college will reject her just because of that one C.</p>
<p>when they come to recruit at her school, they all say the admission officer whose beat covers the school really knows the school well. Are they lying?</p>
<p>Brooklynborndad, no they aren’t lying. The admissions folks do know her school, very well. The problem for your daughter (and it’s a small problem) is that there will be lots of classmates from that school who got fives on the AP test and who did well in the class. It comes back to the issue for your daughter that she’s in the bottom 25th percentile in her class. The list you posted on the other thread was an excellent one, but there is simply no getting away from the fact that your daughter’s GPA and rank aren’t as good as 75% of her classmates, in the same rigorous school.</p>
<p>Zooser,</p>
<p>You (and some others) keep assuming that the main concern is competition with other kids from her school. Her school only has 500 grads, and probably about a third go to ivies or equivalents, and over a third to our states top three state schools. Competing with her classmates is NOT the issue. Its competition with all the kids who have better averages from lesser schools. </p>
<p>The one exception to that simple school/GPA tradeoff is BC Calc, where her teacher WAS an issue - she would probably have gotten at least a B with another teacher AT THAT SCHOOL. </p>
<p>Edit to clarify:
“from that school who got fives on the AP test and who did well in the class”</p>
<p>Yup, but A. Many of those took it as a senior, not a Junior and B. Most of those who took it as a Junior, got 5s, AND got a good grade, are headed towards MIT, Stanford, etc and not toward the schools DD is applying to. </p>
<p>Something like a third or more of the kids who started BC calc with that teacher dropped out to take AB calc. Our kid decided to stick it out.</p>
<p>
No, that’s not what I’m assuming. I’ve been in a similar situation with D1 where parts of the application didn’t mesh perfectly and it DID raise questions. That will happen with your daughter, as well. What you don’t seem to get is that your daughter’s school is excellent, reputable, rigorous, all those things. But there are other such schools, as well. Many of them. And many of those students WILL be applying to your daughter’s schools of choice and they will have test scores as good as hers AND their grades/ranks will be higher. And across the country, there are many kids taking math classes at or higher than the level of your daughter’s as juniors who still received good grades. Those are the kids she is competing with. At the schools on your daughter’s list (and I STILL think RPI is a fantastic choice), many more applications are received than can be accepted and, particularly at the Ivies, if there is a glaring reason to deny admission, that’s what will happen. Kids in the bottom 25th percentile of excellent schools have a very hard way to get into those schools. I don’t know how better to tell you that your daughter is a fantastic candidate. Full stop. The list you presented on the other thread is a great one that will likely get excellent results. Full stop. But there is a discrepancy in your daughter’s package that will make Ivies and that level of school highly unlikely, and could make some of the schools on your daughter’s list choose not to admit her, depending on demographics this year. Full stop. The best thing you can do is cast a wide net. But I told you all that in PM and you don’t seem to want to hear it. It seems as if you wanted to have your fears allayed and I’m sorry if I can’t tell you what you want to hear, but that would be disrespectful.</p>
<p>"But there are other such schools, as well. Many of them. "</p>
<p>No, there aren’t, as far as I can tell. Thats why I privately sent you the name of her school. I can think of maybe two public high schools on the east coast that are equivalents. </p>
<p>"there are many kids taking math classes at or higher than the level of your daughter’s as juniors who still received good grades. "</p>
<p>70,000 people altogether took the BC calc exam in 2008. My guess is that most of those were seniors. And less than half of all who took the exam scored 5’s. As for higher math, I really wonder how many juniors take post AP math.</p>
<p>I realize that for applying to the Ivies the C+ would still be an issue. Perhaps I did not make myself clear. I am primarily concerned about the impact of the grade on applications to engineering programs the next level of selectivity down from the ivies.</p>
<p>"The best thing you can do is cast a wide net. But I told you all that in PM and you don’t seem to want to hear it. It seems as if you wanted to have your fears allayed and I’m sorry if I can’t tell you what you want to hear, but that would be disrespectful. "</p>
<p>I am quite prepared to be told what I don’t want to hear. I DO want the discussion, though, to fully reflect the facts of my DD’s school. It maybe that the situation is too specific, relating to too few kids, for this site to be useful. However discussions that are premised on the idea that my DD’s school is equivalent to MANY similarly competitive schools is simply not useful. </p>
<p>And no, Im not looking for someone to say “RPI, UR, etc are safe for her, dont worry, dont need to cast net wide” I am encouraging her to apply to several schools at that level, and some safeties easier than those. </p>
<p>All I am asking for in this thread is some discussion of the AP test. Before we got the score back, when we knew her GPA, her C+ in BC calc, and her expectation she would get a 3 - at that point I had all the concerns about safety schools, casting her net wide, etc. I STILL think she should apply to safeties and cast her net wide on the matches, and not put much emotion into her reach schools - BUT, after the AP5, I think her chances should have gone up a notch across the board. I certainly have great difficulty with the notion that the AP5 score is going to hurt. </p>
<p>and let me point out once again, her school does not report rank. I am surprised that you continue to argue that rank is a good criterion, when her own school says it is not.</p>
<p>Brooklynborndad, you’re a little too hung-up on your daughter’s school. That name on a diploma isn’t a golden ticket. Go down that list ten places, and the students with similar interests are still comparable and the schools are just as well-regarded. You’re also not factoring in the private school students and the home-schooled students and the international students. The impact will depend on the demographics. As a female engineering student with stellar scores and great preparation, she should be in fine shape. Unless you don’t have her apply to enough schools and she gets unlucky in terms of the number of more-qualified females applying. If your daughter is in the bottom 25th percentile, is that really the only C+?</p>
<p>
I’m not saying that at all. Obviously we’re talking over each other. Good luck!</p>
<p>"If your daughter is in the bottom 25th percentile, is that really the only C+? "</p>
<p>At least since freshman year, Im pretty sure. The school tosses kids who have less than a B average, that impacts the percentiles. </p>
<p>There arent many private schools like this. (and how many Andover and Exeter students apply to lehigh and UR?) And the homeschoolers arent ranked. And at least some of the other public schools that are similar don’t rank. </p>
<p>and I dont think its a golden ticket. If I did, Id be suggesting she mainly apply to ivies, not to the schools she is focusing on. </p>
<p>Im not hung up. I AM trying to make sense of whats realistic, and you cant understand her GPA without that. If we were talking only about interests, SAT scores, etc, I wouldnt mention her school. But when you talk GPA’s, and for goodness sake, ranks, how can you not put that in the context of the school?</p>
<p>Have you looked at the statistics for RPI and UR? RPI has 1% of its freshman class listed as students that were in the bottom half of their high school classes, whereas UR has none. The vast majority of applicants to those schools will have AP/IB and the scores reported by applicants will be excellent. For engineering applicants, more of those scores will be high-level math, than, say history applicants, so I don’t think the five will be that much help, I really don’t. What I do think will help is her stellar SAT scores, which are completely in line for both of those schools. Your school may not rank, but in some fashion, they do provide context. Have you looked at the school profile that’s sent to colleges? Many schools provide grade distributions and deciles for context, which really do show where each student stands.</p>
<p>Brooklynborndad. Please realize that colleges look at a variety of criteria. In particular, smaller private schools try to take a more wholistic approach to admissions than simply ranking each student by their numbers.</p>
<p>In terms of the Ivies, it’s useful to know that every year, Harvard could have admitted two additional, equally qualified, freshman classes. As the previous poster has stressed, there are a lot of really smart kids in the world, who took really challenging high school curricula and did really well.</p>
<p>I think you need to relax a little. Your DD will get into a good engineering program.</p>
<p>So, why did your D get a C+ from this teacher? Where there personal issues?</p>