<p>Under the banner of "different strokes for different folks", I will do the flip side of the coin of elite versus third tier for top students. Back in the mid '70's I went to two elite institution(s) - Carnegie Mellon my freshman year and the University of Chicago as a sophomore transfer finishing with a BA and MBA over four more years. Especially with U. Chicago, I thrived in the "life of the mind" environment and have lifelong friends from that experience, but even then I also missed some of the "big state u." positives such as the cameraderie of the tail gate parties of alumni and current students before the big football (and basketball) games, etc. My younger son goes to an honors college at a "big state u." so he gets a good dose of the strong academically oriented students in the honors classes (which the elites provide in spades) plus the fun of the big crowds at the big games rooting for the home team. And I do some vicarious living through him as well.</p>
<p>Wolfpiper: You say that so far you have been immersed in the "academic performance cult". All the more reason that a school like UM will be a good place for you.</p>
<p>Intelligence comes in more than one type of package. At a state flagship school like UM you'll have the opportunity to become part of a group of kids from the same "cult". However, in the real world, a lot of people succeed far more than members of your "cult". They are people who had to work much harder than you to get grades perhaps not quite as good as yours. From that, they know how to work hard to accomplish things. Some of them will not get such good grades, but will learn very well how to do well in the outside world - where there are other keys to success than just academics. It's a different flavor of intelligence (some aspects of it are often called "street smarts"), and one that you would do well to also associate with.</p>
<p>Have a great time!</p>
<p>I'm the OP in this thread, and I just wanted to say that, despite tall my summer angst, I had an amazing semester at my third tier school--with an amazing campus, an amazingly sweet and friendly student body, and some truly excellent professors! I still don't drink or party but easily found my niche on campus, becoming active in several student organizations, getting an early start in undergrad. research, and pledging a sorority my second semester (yes, there is such a thing as a tea-totalling Greek). All and all, it was an unexpectedly amazing experience!</p>
<p>If you have any questions, feel free to ask!</p>
<p>wolfpiper,
Thanks for reviving this thread! It will be good for current students who may be in the situation you were in last year to see that it has worked out well for you. Of course, they have to go into the experience the way you did, with a lot of maturity, flexibility and open-mindedness! :) Congratulations on your great first year! I saw on another thread that you had a very successful start to your academic career too! Congratulations!</p>
<p>Wolfpiper, I am not surprised! You seem to be a risk-taker and also know YOUR own mind. Congrats!</p>
<p>Thanks for checking back with us. My sis and her son are U Montana grads; one left for California, and one will never leave Missoula, it just worked its special magic on him.</p>
<p>A great story for the "what is the best college?" fever around here.</p>
<p>In Maine, many excellent students go to the state universities. The University of Maine, the flagship, is (I believe) considered tier three by USNWR. But it has good aid for top students, an honors college, and is relatively small for a state flagship, so classes are not huge and students can develop close links with professors. Another in-state school that attracts good students is the University of Maine-Farmington which is a public liberal arts college, with an enrollment cap of 2000. I hear raves about the quality of teaching and the sense of community and rate of student engagement.</p>
<p>My NMF, 4.7 GPA DD just finished her first year at Baylor and had a wonderful year. Last year, she applied to 12 schools and got into all 12 including UCB, UCLA, Duke, UNC Chapel hill and others. We have 4 children, and for us, trying to get some merit aid was priority in trying to choose a college . . .our criteria was that the school could not cost anymore than a UC school would cost us, eg about $22,000 total/year.</p>
<p>DD choose Baylor because she got offered a full tuition scholarship, would be in honors program (which would also give her priority in registering for classes), she wanted to go out of state, and because it was a more conservative school. We did have some concerns that Baylor may not be the best academic match for her because it was a third tier school (BTW, is the first 25 ranked schools the first tier, 2nd 25 ranked schools the second tier and so on?).</p>
<p>DD loves the school and has made lots of friends, that I am sure will become even closer as they have more years in college together. </p>
<p>DD did dance before in HS, she was in "Baylor Sings" (an annual musical revue) this year, she did drama before in HS and she is in a performing drama group in Baylor this year, she tutored elem school kids in HS and she tutored elem kids this year. In High school, DD enjoyed helping others and had gone on several humanitarian missions trips (Thailand, Mexico, etc) to help others. At this very moment, she is now in Armenia doing a 2 week humanitarian mission trip sponsored by Baylor (she left 4 days after finals were over). In short, Dd is doing at Baylor most of the things that she had a passion for in High school. . she is just dong them now at the collegiate level. </p>
<p>As for academics, DD took harder level courses this year since she was considered almost a soph before she even started Baylor. This past semester among other courses, she took third level calculus and second level physics, and got 2 "B+" for the first time in her life -- which tells me that Baylor can definitely offer academic challenge to straight A, high GPA, high scoring SAT kids such as my daughter..</p>
<p>DD will start school this August in Baylor as a junior, but because she has a full 4 year tuition scholarship, she plans to stay the full four years in order to take advantage of opportunities such as studying abroad, etc. </p>
<p>In summary, Baylor, even though a third tier school, has been a great fit, and because we are saving on tuition, DD will have money for graduate school. </p>
<p>We --and DD--are happy with her choice. . . .and now, we start the process all over as we having an incoming senior DD#2.</p>
<p>Last summer my daughter and I were getting ready to go on a college tour of UNC. Her ex-bf was saying good-bye, as he was leaving for college at a state university. He is very smart and got good grades in high school without doing much work. He said he was starting to regret his decision not to attend one of the other schools to which he had been accepted--Rice, University of Chicago, UC Berkeley. He said he would probably transfer after a year or two. When I asked him why he had declined offers from those schools, he said he just wasn't ready to work that hard. Well, I talked to him after the first semester and he said the honors program was challenging enough and he was enjoying being in a fraternity. He said he had no interest in transferring. So . . . I think college is more about finding what works for you, not for everybody else.</p>
<p>I think a key here is to think of Honors programs at the non-elite universities. The public flagship U's will always have elite students who choose/end up there for various reasons. Students should consider the academically top school(s) in their state, though, to get the school with the highest number of those elite students. Sometimes a large state flagship school's %iles may be misleading- there can be a large enough number of the best students to yield some good classes and find like-minded friends. I never consider doing extracurriculars as a substitute for academics - when you want real brain food dessert just doesn't do.</p>
<p>Wis, not every smart kid fits best in a wholly academic environment. My son really kind of drifted at a highly academic focused LAC -- his performance was very uneven. Then he took time off from school and found work where he really excelled, and was given a great deal of responsibility and independence with several major projects. When he returned to school his options were limited due partly to finances, so he ended up a less well-regarded public. He took a half time position working for a public agency at the same time he was in school, and I think even when his classwork was underwhelming in its level of challenge, he really enjoyed his job -- he had a lot of responsibility and I saw him very excited about his work, and at the same time often doing the minimum required for his classes, and still earning straight A's. That being said, he did have some profs who were excellent and he enjoyed some of his classes- I think he has had one or two very good profs & interesting classes each semester. </p>
<p>In the spring he applied for and was awarded an internship that is incredible -- it will take him off campus during the fall semester of his senior year, and includes a full scholarship plus housing plus stipend for the period of the internship. For his major and area of interest, it is probably the best possible opportunity he could have -- and I honestly think that he was in a position to get it in part because he was at a school where he happened to be significantly stronger academically than most of the other students. If that left him bored, that would be a problem -- but I think its more accurate to say that it simply leaves him with time to pursue the work that really excites him. (His major relates to his career interest & work). </p>
<p>My son is an avid reader and deep thinker -- but in hindsight I can see that he is frustrated in the classroom environment. He was always more of a hands on learner. So he definitely has done better in the long run at the "3rd tier" school -- it really has put him in a much better position to tailor his education to his career interests and goals. </p>
<p>The problem with a focus on "honors" classes or a high number of "elite" students is that you are assuming that the student is going to learn best through peer interaction, in and out of the classroom. It turns out that my son seems to do best working independently and taking a leadership role - so, quite frankly, he seems to do better in an environment where he is at the head of the pack.</p>
<p>There are clearly kids who do better as the "big fish" in a smaller sea, and others who absolutely need a bigger sea. My sense is that not all kids will do well in a third tier, particularly if they are they type who need a broader pool of students who push them to strive to higher levels.</p>
<p>This is neither an indictment on third tier schools, nor on top students who choose to attend them, but a commentary on individual preferences and personality differences.</p>
<p>Allmusic makes a good point. Regardless of the "tier", my kids would never choose a small school that may not be much larger than their high school. Also, my son doesn't care if he is nurtured, but I think that might be something of some importance to my daughter. To each his own!</p>
<p>mom of four, glad to hear that your D is doing well at Baylor. Sounds like she's taking advatage of lots of opportunities and they are making her feel wanted. BUT Baylor is Tier Two , not Tier 3 to use the vocab of USNWR (roughly 50 per tier with sometimes lots of ties. This year there are 124 schools in the top two "tiers".Baylor is ranked 81. ).</p>
<p>When did the whole tier form of ranking start? And who decides what tier a school is in? Some might be obvious, but wouldn't there be others where the level is less clear? The quality of a school also depends on one's own point of view, what major they're interested in, etc.</p>
<p>I don't think USNews is completely to blame, though am sure it didn't help. Some schools have been considered top quality for many years -- long before all these lists came out. I think rankings are too subjective to be taken very seriously.</p>
<p>happy? yes, no doubt, of course...</p>
<p>truly satisfied, and wondering what it could have been like if they went to someplace better.....that's what we're talking about, isn't it? haha</p>
<p>oh yeah lol sorry for "invading" the paprents forum</p>
<p>I think what we need to remember is that top students are not all the same. They may do well academically (or be capable of doing well), but they have different personalities and needs. I think a top student can be happy at a third tier school if all other factors make it a good fit for him or her.</p>
<p>
I'm willing to bet that the ranking of colleges began when there became two colleges to rank. ;)</p>
<p>As to the "tier" system, on CC I almost presume that the poster is talking about USNWR because of the nomenclature used - "tier". If they say"top schools" or "super elite" or some other grouping I know that they are not talking about USNWR and it's a personal ranking system. But hey. I've been wrong about that, too. LOL</p>
<p>Think you're probably right.</p>
<p>We actually found USNWR handy for the stats included (student-teacher ratios and the like), but tried not to place too much emphasis on rankings.</p>
<p>I once recall reading that there was often a correlation between a school's reputation and it's founding date (the older the better). Too many "systems!"</p>
<p>My D seems to function best, or at least likes it best, when she's surrounded by a lot of very bright, energetic students. She raves about the Math program in Budapest, noting in passing that she's never been among a smarter group of people. She's had a blast even though she's not at the top of the group. Whereas when she is at the top of a group, she starts to feel "itchy."</p>