<p>Yeah, just to reiterate what everyone else has said:
When I took a tour of Brown, my guide explained the reasoning behind the no-core curriculum philosophy - typically kids who get accepted to Brown have already gone through a college-level core curriculum (including math, of course) and so the college doesn’t see the need to enforce those kind of classes again. The freshmen at Brown are basically sophomores/juniors at most state colleges. That’s status quo at any Ivy. High level math in high school is probably important to admissions because it demonstrates an important facet of intelligence, and while it’s not the only part of intelligence, it’s still a big one. That’s the harsh reality of it.</p>
<p>if you’re a normal student and you don’t take pre-calc in high school, you don’t deserve to go to brown.</p>
<p>“demonstrates an important facet of intelligence, and while it’s not the only part of intelligence, it’s still a big one.”</p>
<p>i just don’t understand how math is an important facet of intelligence. when do we use quantitative reasoning in our lives besides consumer math (which, ironically, is one of the few types of math colleges don’t want students to take)? how does knowing a lot of algebra or calculus formulas expand one’s worldview? there have been leagues of brilliant writers, philosophers, historians, artists, etc that aren’t good in math, yet no one would say they are to be looked down upon cuz they lack that facet of intelligence. just as there are brilliant mathematicians, scientists, engineers who couldn’t ever write the great american novel or create new philosophical theories, but no one thinks they’re not intelligent cuz they can’t.</p>
<p>so i guess it is like i said: they expect geniuses in every subject. so i probably won’t get in, but i’ll still try!</p>
<p>We don’t expect geniuses in all areas and please don’t take what I said too seriously and as an expression of what Brown thinks, it’s just my perspective.</p>
<p>However, not seeing how math beyond consumer math is important in the lives of people who are not scientists or mathematicians is pretty telling, IMO.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>you should probably edit this out</p>
<p>Like I said, it’s not the only part of intelligence. The reason why those people aren’t looked down on for any lack of competence in a certain subject is because they proved themselves in others. If you prove yourself with excellent essays, excellent EC’s, excellent character, then you’ll make up for a lack of competence in math.</p>
<p>I think the point is Brown are looking for the BEST.
There are a lot of people who are just good in English and there are a lot of people who are just good in Math/Science.
Brown can afford to pick those few who are good in both, those people who have demonstrated a sound understanding of all high school courses.
These well rounded people are more likely to take advantage of Brown’s whole curriculum and eventually specialize and pursue their interests.</p>
<p>“However, not seeing how math beyond consumer math is important in the lives of people who are not scientists or mathematicians is pretty telling, IMO.”</p>
<p>i don’t know what your major was, but if it wasn’t in math/science, please, by all means, tell me when you’ve used honors algebra, honors pre-cal, or ap calc in your life. please tell me how it expanded your worldview or provided you with any kind of meaningful experience or made you a much better thinker. most people that aren’t in our generation didn’t even take those classes. you think they mentally suffer for it? and even for those who took it, most forget what they learned a few months after learning it. it really improved their thinking abilities though!!! and now they’ll be able to face all the challenges of the world with confidence cuz they passed ap calc in high school!!</p>
<p>“The reason why those people aren’t looked down on for any lack of competence in a certain subject is because they proved themselves in others. If you prove yourself with excellent essays, excellent EC’s, excellent character, then you’ll make up for a lack of competence in math.”</p>
<p>exactly what i meant and what i’m hoping to accomplish.</p>
<p>but as poorplayer seems to agree, they really are looking for geniuses in every subject and can afford to enroll such students.</p>
<p>though i do know one brown student at least that got into brown with a 630 in math sat and she wasn’t a urm either. just sayin’. </p>
<p>the whole reason a core curriculum exists at other schools is to force them to “take advantage of the whole curriculum”. so if brown wants its students to do so, why have an open curriculum? the “oh cool i can take this intimidating class but take it pass/fail” thing? again contradicts what they seem to be looking for in their students.</p>
<p><a href=“http://brown.edu/Administration/Dean_of_the_College/curriculum/downloads/Lib_Learning_Goals.pdf[/url]”>http://brown.edu/Administration/Dean_of_the_College/curriculum/downloads/Lib_Learning_Goals.pdf</a></p>
<p>I just skimmed this thread, but wanted to make a few comments – sorry if they are repetitive:</p>
<ol>
<li><p>whitecadillac, I think you’ve asked this very same question in several different ways on different threads, and always gotten the same answer. Brown wants students who have taken the most rigorous curriculum in their high school. There will be exceptions, but they are the exceptions and not the rule. You can ask this question up and down and left and right, but you will still get the same answer.</p></li>
<li><p>Brown’s educational philosophy applies to college, not high school. Period, end of story. No contradictions whatsoever.</p></li>
<li><p>It is very difficult to get into Brown even if you’ve taken math beyond Calc BC. It is very very difficult to get into Brown if you haven’t taken calculus. You haven’t even taken pre-calc? The majority of Brown applicants took pre-calc in their junior year of HS. Some students offer good reasons why they have not taken it – like, they were studying abroad or their school doesn’t offer the class – which might explain the gap and be accepted by the adcoms.</p></li>
<li><p>And this might be the most important: The reason to take calculus is NOT because you are going to major in math or engin or science. The reason to take calculus has nothing to do with your future career or whether you will ever use it again. Calculus teaches a certain type of logic and problem solving techniques that hone one’s intellect and analytical skills. Many believe that every truly educated person (whether you are a philosopher, a screen writer or an economist) must take calculus. By avoiding calculus, you are avoiding learning a higher order of thinking and logic and problem solving. Once you know calculus, it affects your world view and how you approach problem solving. It trains your brain to problem solve in a certain way. That is why every selective college – not just HYP, but just about all the top schools – want to see calculus on the transcript.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>You may not like my answer, but there it is. Yes, there are students who get into the top schools with low math SATs and without calculus. And that will be because they offer something that these schools want – whether it be a musical talent, superior leadership skills, the ability to throw a football far distances. When these schools get 9 times the number of applicants they can accept, they write the rules.</p>
<p>What nonsense!</p>
<p>I never took precal and, I was fine – like the OP, Math wasn’t terribly relevant to my career interests. Frankly, I’d have been better off with the background, but, what a relief to be done with math in college. </p>
<p>I think as with most things in life it depends on how you talk about it… if you say you hated math that’s not so good. If you say you’re passionate about the French and Indian war or whatever, its probably better</p>
<p>Modest,</p>
<p>Remember that the U. is pretty for folks who are pretty narrow and, pretty broad in their interests. </p>
<p>Why take a risk if you know how you feel? I don’t like mayo. Not eating it isn’t a risk aversion, it’s just good sense imho</p>
<p>i do disagree with your answer, fireandrain. i am the most logical person out of all my friends. most of them have taken ap calc. they can’t reason any better than i can. they are not better problem solvers than me. they come to me for advice, they come to me for the most highly logical answers to problems. so yes, i do disagree that taking ap calc suddenly makes someone a supremely logical thinker. there is absolutely no way you can honestly think that taking one class can suddenly alter someone’s ability for logic in that profound of a way or that not taking that class means they are not capable of high problem-solving abilities that you’ll use in the real world. </p>
<p>edit: but wait…fred, you didn’t take pre-cal and got into brown?</p>
<p>If you disagree with me then you are disagreeing with just about every admissions person at every top school, with many professors and many educated people. Which is fine – you can disagree with me as much as you like. </p>
<p>I didn’t say that calculus teaches logic or makes one a logical person. If that’s how you interpreted my comment, then I question your reading comprehension skills. </p>
<p>You keep asking the same question hoping to get an answer that you will like; you don’t get it so you ask it in a different way. That doesn’t show much common sense or logic to me. </p>
<p>Numerous people have told you that Brown and other top schools accept students who have weaknesses in their transcripts. And we’ve all explained why. Fred getting accepted doesn’t negate a single thing that modest and me and others have said.</p>
<p>you imply that calculus teaches a certain kind of invaluable, supreme level of logic and problem-solving ability. reread your own writing. </p>
<p>“Calculus teaches a certain type of logic and problem solving techniques that hone one’s intellect and analytical skills. Many believe that every truly educated person (whether you are a philosopher, a screen writer or an economist) must take calculus. By avoiding calculus, you are avoiding learning a higher order of thinking and logic and problem solving. Once you know calculus, it affects your world view and how you approach problem solving. It trains your brain to problem solve in a certain way. That is why every selective college – not just HYP, but just about all the top schools – want to see calculus on the transcript.”</p>
<p>you are saying someone cannot be “truly educated” without having taken calc. that is just… a repulsively black-and-white view of what it means to be truly educated. i don’t doubt that many admissions officers and professors feel the same way. but that doesn’t mean i have to agree with them just cuz “omg they’re professors! they must be right! and im gonna blindly agree with everything they believe!” sorry, no. and you say it trains your brain to problem solve in a sophisticated way. well some of us already can do that and don’t need to take calc to suddenly be enlightened in the ways of logic. </p>
<p>but really, you’re not going to change your opinion, and i’ll tell you right now that i’m not going to change mine. we could go around in circles reiterating the same points and drawing in new ones but i don’t have time for that–i’ve got apps to work on. and i’ll take pre-cal. i won’t learn anything meaningful from it and i’ll never use it again, but i’ll play the game they want me to play.</p>
<p>Brown’s educational philosophy applies to its admissions policies re: reading HS transcripts. There is room for well-rounded and, well-lopsided folks because they are building a class of individuals. They are reinforcing and, if you believe otherwise I don’t even know how I’d respond to that. </p>
<p>True that there is an expectation of 3 (4?) years of math. Moreover, calculus is preferable to not having it BUT, if it is a matter of a passion being elsewhere rather than being lazy then I doubt it’d matter with a major like English.</p>
<p>Would having taken pre-calc help? perhaps…but, it’s not deal or no deal.</p>
<p>I also think it’s most un-Brown to suggest that they are avoiding a higher-order of thinking…perhaps the priorities are merely different.</p>
<p>The bottom line is that Brown is highly selective.
Whatever the value of Calculus really is is irrelevant.</p>
<p>If Brown is choosing between two people who both have CR 800 but one of them has Calc they will choose the Calc person because he/she has displayed a ‘harder course load’ and has spent time and effort to learn an additional extremely difficult subject.</p>
<p>Yes, before you get hot-headed about that, that is an extremely simplistic example.
But again… the bottom line is: people who do more stuff, whatever that stuff is, are considered more intelligent/capable or at least more risk-taking than others.</p>
<p>Oh and YES i agree that there are exceptions and that if you prove yourself to be a master of some particular field the admissions office will not care about Calc at all… but the whole point of this website is to determine ways in which to improve one’s chances of getting in. There is no doubt that taking Calc is a way to do so.</p>
<p>^i agree.</p>
<p>i guess the new question is, what looks better: pre-cal or calc at a cc? someone on this board said that her cc offered calc that could be taken without having taken pre-cal. i have to look into my cc to see if they offer it too, but if they do, would it be wise to take the calc instead of pre-cal?</p>
<p>Hahahaha… that was clever… 
I see what you did there whitecadillac.</p>
<p>no seriously i agree with what you said! and i have decided that i will take the class even though it goes against my personal beliefs about education and whatnot, so i’m ready to move on and get your advice on which class i should take: pre-cal or calc?</p>