Can you get into brown without having taken pre-cal?

Colleges and Universities A-Z Brown University
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<p>This feels like a game of chess :stuck_out_tongue:
The obvious answer to that question is that you should take Calculus, because following on from my original train of logic doing more/harder stuff increases one’s chances.
But of course from what you have said you are not good at math and would probably get a bad grade in Calculus, let alone pre-calculus.
So when I recommend that you should take Calculus you will come back at me and say ‘ohhhh but I will do badly in Calculus!’… to which my only answer will be ‘well I guess you aren’t as smart as some people’… which is a valid answer I guess… but then it raises a whole new debate as to whether it is good to take challenging and ultimately useless courses or to just do what you can succeed in.
But then that would bring us back to where we started…</p>

<p>(Maybe I am over analyzing… in which case disregard what I have just said)</p>

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<p>haha no seriously a chess game isn’t what i wanted!</p>

<p>i’m taking the classes at a cc, so i think i can do pretty good. i mean, i’m not soooo terrible at math. i got an a+ in honors geometry and a b+ in honors algebra ii. so i think i can do fine in a cc class of either pre-cal or calc. honors pre-cal at my school? eh…maybe. ap calc? no, probably not, but that’s a little different. </p>

<p>so i checked my cc’s website and they offer two calc courses that you can take without taking pre-cal. they are “calc business and social science” or something? and “geometry and calc i”. which sounds “harder/more impressive” to you?</p>

<p>and are they both “harder/more impressive” than pre-cal?</p>

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<p>I’m really not sure without seeing the course details.
Anyhow, if you take AP Calculus that should be perfect I think.</p>

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<p>they don’t have details listed for any of them, unfortunately. and i’m already a senior; ap calc is a year-long class that i can’t enroll in at this point. and even if i could, i would not enroll in it just to have a chance at brown. i mean, yeah, i like brown. but there are plenty of schools where i can get an equally good education and without tainting my high school years by going against my beliefs too much. i understand taking pre-cal or calc i to have the requirements done and play their game. but to take ap calc just to get into a particular school? horrible reason for taking such a class. i think ap calc should be reserved for those who are truly advanced in math and wish to learn calc in an advanced way. the fact is, most people take all these classes JUST TO GET IN to particular schools, not cuz they genuinely want to learn the material and certainly not cuz they just “want to challenge themselves and expand their horizons”. i’ve never met one person who is taking ap calc cuz they sincerely want to be a better thinker. </p>

<p>but that’s another discussion for another time. does anyone know if “calc business and social science” or “geometry and calc i” or “pre-cal” is the best? is anyone familiar with these classes?</p>

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<p>You’re right, both to our benefit and sometimes our detriment.

Because we’re not talking about stopping at multivariable calculus we’re talking about taking a course that’s standard in most parts of the country for juniors (certainly for advanced students). As you yourself admit, four years of math is definitely important, however, we’re talking about taking what is typically considered year 3 in high school for students applying to Brown. The philosophy of Brown doesn’t apply down forever, like I said, and as much as whitecadillac may think that math is useless and thinks he/she is the most logical of his/her friends (being a smart problem solver does not mean you have very sharp reasoning skills, nor does it mean that those skills would not be significantly honed to your benefit), we’re talking about being far behind where most Brown students are when they enter.</p>

<p>Part of our luxury comes from how much “college level” material students are doing before they get to Brown. Part of it comes from already excelling in the fundamentals which allows us to put the responsibility on students to make connections and create a path for their own gaps and desires. Considering even an easy Brown stats class uses material that was in pre-calc at my school (and I had a terrible pre-calc class that was a wasted year), the point is that precalc will be expected and not having it will be a red flag, and not having it and demonstrating poor math skills on the SAT (600 puts you in the 75th percentile) looks like you’re avoiding.</p>

<p>Avoidance may be a consequence of the open curriculum but it’s not the intention, and when avoidance occurs it is somewhat ameliorated by the fact that most of our students have had calculus before walking in so taking Math 9 in high school versus at Brown is not super different and it’s not as bad as saying these students aren’t beyond high school math.</p>

<p>Whitecadillac-- don’t do things just to get into schools, but also don’t embrace the naivete that you already know math is useless because you don’t like it. Brown certainly does have room for many lopsided people, but be careful on banking on that situation-- you may find yourself being less lopsided than you think.</p>

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<p>“demonstrating poor math skills on the SAT (600 puts you in the 75th percentile)”</p>

<p>Being better than the large majority of students is “poor”? Ooookay…</p>

<p>Anyway, whitecadillac, I agree that math is useless for me personally. I’ve taken all honors math courses but I’ve never once used the material after the final exams were completed. My problem-solving abilities and logic were unchanged by the courses as well. Maybe the classes help some people hone these aforementioned abilities, but there isn’t a “one size fits all” class that will accomplish the same things for all people. In fact, I’d go as far as to say that the actual goal of AP Calc (which is–on paper–a good one, enhancing one’s logical abilities) is not usually met in its students. It’s the same with any AP class, with any high school class even. For instance, AP English Language’s goal is to help students write better, to think more critically and creatively. How many people leave the class with these abilities honed? Very few. Even those that get A’s in the class oftentimes have not actually acquired the most valuable skills from the class. Maybe they know how to outline a rhetorical analysis essay now, but meet up with them in a year, and they probably will churn out a mediocre essay at best. Students acquire the skills for the time being but they rarely stay with them unless the student actually wanted to gain the skills and worked to alter their brain in such a profound way.</p>

<p>So AP English Language could help someone think more critically and more creatively, but it will certainly not always do that for a particular individual and for those who already can do so competently, AP Lang is not necessarily necessary. It just depends on the person, I think. </p>

<p>Anyway, I’m that other person who is taking either Pre-cal or Calc at my CC next term. My CC offers those same classes, actually. On a different thread, someone said that “Calc Business and Social Science” is not considered impressive because it has very little mathematical rigor, so even though that may sound appealing to us (and Calc for Social Science seems like it would actually be an interesting class for me personally and might actually have some meaning for my future major/career [I’m considering either majoring or minoring in a social science]), I’m not sure if it would “look good” to colleges.</p>

<p>Does anyone know? Is it better to take Calc for one’s intended major/interests like that class for social science? Or should I go with the “Analytic Geometry and Calculus I”?</p>

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<p>*“Maybe they know how to outline a rhetorical analysis essay now, but meet up with them in a year, and they probably will churn out a mediocre essay at best.”</p>

<p>And what I mean by this is that it’s quite possible to learn formulas for essays (or for math or whatever subject it is) and students often–at the time–can follow the formulas and therefore solve problems in the class, but have they really changed the way their mind thinks? It’s rare. There are students who do it, yes, but just taking and even succeeding in a class does not mean one has really become a better thinker in the long-run. Changing the way one’s brain functions on a day-to-day basis is a huge accomplishment, not just a natural result of taking a certain class.</p>

<p>And for those who already think critically and creatively, is AP Lang really necessary? For someone who can think logically, is AP Calc really necessary? They may help, but they may not. It’s really relative to the individual, what abilities they already have, what abilities they seek, and how far they are willing to go to literally change the way their brain works.</p>

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<p>“For instance, AP English Language’s goal is to help students write better, to think more critically and creatively. How many people leave the class with these abilities honed?”</p>

<p>It also has a lot to do with the quality of the teacher. Virtually everyone who took that class at my school has said they felt like their writing and creative abilities improved exponentially. Mine definitely did, and I had been attending summer writing programs and getting top grades in every English-based class I’d taken. But this year in AP English Lit, I don’t feel I’m improving at all because my teacher is new to the curriculum.</p>

<p>But more than that, I think it’s close-minded to dismiss courses if they don’t align with your interest. I definitely don’t have any interest in pursuing math, but I took AP Calc AB in my junior year and I’m taking AP Stat this year. (AP Stat, by the way, might actually be what you’d consider “useful”). Both courses have given me an appreciation for the level of thought and mastery that is required of engineers and theoreticians and scientists (the list goes on and on) which I would not have attained had I dismissed them as unnecessary. I think everyone should definitely attempt higher-level courses in each core subject to at least gain an appreciation for the different kinds of hard work your fellow human beings are doing around you. Otherwise you run a higher chance of slipping into the narcissistic and dangerous mindset that what you are good at is somehow “above” what others are good at. That said, I’m glad you’re deciding to continue on with math at a CC.</p>

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<p>Hey not to hijack this thread or anything… But i have an important question</p>

<p>I am taking Calc this NEXT semester at a CC. I just applied ED to Brown. However, on my transcript, there is no way to note this as I obviously haven’t enrolled yet and I didn’t note this on my Common App course list because I couldn’t enroll until this past week. </p>

<p>So basically Brown doesn’t know that I am taking Calc. Should I call them and tell them or have my counselor call and mention it? I didn’t even think about it until I saw this thread. Do you think it is too late in the game to do this? </p>

<p>Thanks</p>

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<p>“It also has a lot to do with the quality of the teacher. Virtually everyone who took that class at my school has said they felt like their writing and creative abilities improved exponentially. Mine definitely did, and I had been attending summer writing programs and getting top grades in every English-based class I’d taken. But this year in AP English Lit, I don’t feel I’m improving at all because my teacher is new to the curriculum.”</p>

<p>Eh, I don’t know. In my AP Lang class, I had a very good teacher and did indeed feel the same as you: I felt my writing abilities and ability to interpret literature improved considerably. However, most of my peers didn’t feel the same. Most of them–even by the end of the year–were getting 5’s and 6’s on their essays while I had steadily increased the entire year from a 4 from my first essay to 7’s to 8’s to 9’s. I’m also the only person in my whole class (I mean, all the juniors who took the AP Lang AP Exam) that got a 5. </p>

<p>So I think it has to do with the individual student more than anything. I, as an aspiring writer, genuinely wanted to improve my abilities and thought process regarding literature. But most others in my class? Not so much. They didn’t truly work to alter their abilities, so they were left unaltered. Many of these people got A’s and B’s too, so they still succeeded in the class. Therefore, simply taking and succeeding in a class doesn’t really prove that someone is capable in a certain facet of intellect; and if they are capable, it doesn’t mean that that class itself was the magical key to their capability. </p>

<p>Maybe students at your school genuinely wanted to improve their writing abilities and were not just taking the course to put it on college transcripts?</p>

<p>“But more than that, I think it’s close-minded to dismiss courses if they don’t align with your interest. I definitely don’t have any interest in pursuing math, but I took AP Calc AB in my junior year and I’m taking AP Stat this year. (AP Stat, by the way, might actually be what you’d consider “useful”). Both courses have given me an appreciation for the level of thought and mastery that is required of engineers and theoreticians and scientists (the list goes on and on) which I would not have attained had I dismissed them as unnecessary. I think everyone should definitely attempt higher-level courses in each core subject to at least gain an appreciation for the different kinds of hard work your fellow human beings are doing around you. Otherwise you run a higher chance of slipping into the narcissistic and dangerous mindset that what you are good at is somehow “above” what others are good at. That said, I’m glad you’re deciding to continue on with math at a CC.”</p>

<p>I don’t know if you were talking to me or whitecadillac, but personally, I already highly appreciate the hard work mathematicians, scientists, and the like do. Unlike most people (who think math/science is superior to humanities), I think every field is worthy of the same respect, and I believe is each is as rich with hard work, necessary intellect, and dedication as the next. I don’t need to take AP Calc to know that people who actually need AP Calc and do work further in their lives involving calculus are going to be in for a lot of hard work, a high level of thought, and mastery of their subject matter.</p>

<p>But is it just me or do people seem to think taking AP math and science is somehow “better” or more indicative of one’s intelligence than taking AP humanities courses? For instance, if this thread were retitled “Can you get into Brown without having taken advanced English?” or something similar to the English version of Pre-cal while the OP was clearly a math/science wiz, would the responses be the same?</p>

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<p>some reasons why pre-calculus is important:</p>

<p>taught properly, it teaches critical thinking and logic skills. these actually aid one greatly in the humanities; the ability to logically prove a point (really well) is a skill useful in all areas.</p>

<p>you also said that english, humanities, and science are important because it teaches one an understanding of how the world works. so does math! EVERYTHING in the world all comes down to numbers. this starts to become apparant in pre calc and even more in calculus. its just as important in an understanding of the world as english, humanities, and science. both descartes and aristotle, known for their impact on the humanities, were incredibly well versed in mathematics. david foster wallace, one of the greatest modern authors, double majored in philosophy (specializing in mathematics and logic). I do believe that there is a relation between great thinkers and understanding of mathematics. </p>

<p>i also saw another post that you asked someone “did mathematics ever help you?” i can confidently answer that yes, it has. i am in ap calc right now where we are being forced to answer difficult questions through logical reasoning. it has exercised my mind and made it easier for me to think more clearly and logically, which has in fact, improved the quality of ideas of my english essays. </p>

<p>but none of this really matters i suppose, because yes, you will probably have a hard time getting into brown without pre-calc</p>

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<p>Can you more thoroughly illustrate how–knowing how to solve a certain math problem in Calc–helped you write better essays? Saying that Calc makes you more logical and therefore you can perhaps write persuasive essays is kind of vague. Your English class is the one that should really be helping you learn how to think critically and logically prove a point humanities-wise. </p>

<p>I’m just not convinced that being mathematically logical significantly helps one be logical in other areas of thought. For example, I was the only person in my AP English class last year to score 9’s on my persuasive essays (obviously requiring a lot of well-thought out reasoning and logic); most of my friends–who were taking AP Calc at the time–got 5’s on those essays. So, again, it depends on the individual. It sounds like you’re one of those rare people who actually has altered his way of thinking through taking Calc, but again, that’s rare.</p>

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<p>When you are a professional tennis player, and you want to be the best, you don’t just spend every hour of the day swinging a tennis racket. Chances are you lift weights, run sprints, practice hand-eye coordination, etc. All of those activities exercise your body and make you a better tennis player.</p>

<p>It works the same with academics. Calculus is to problem solving as lifting weights is to tennis. It helps exercise the brain in a different way, and improves it.</p>

<p>Nate: Go talk to your guidance counselor; I think it might be a good idea to tell Brown you’ve signed up for Calculus.</p>

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<p>Very ironically, my husband and I have argued about this – he believes everyone should take upper level math and physics and I disagreed and kidded him for having avoided taking tough English classes in high school and college. I told him he had a double standard by arguing that everyone should have math and physics and not English and history.</p>

<p>I’ve had long discussions with many high school students about whether or not to take calculus. I usually tell them that they should not do something only because they think it will get them into college. You never know why you don’t get into a school, and how frustrating would it be to torture yourself with calculus or AP English and still not get accepted to your dream college? Better off avoiding the torture, I feel. </p>

<p>I don’t think everyone should take calculus. Actually – I don’t believe everyone should take AP Calculus – I think there should be “calculus for poets” option.</p>

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<p>“I don’t think everyone should take calculus. Actually – I don’t believe everyone should take AP Calculus – I think there should be “calculus for poets” option.”</p>

<p>I don’t know if you’re being sarcastic or sincere, but either way…sign me up for “Calculus for Poets” please! :)</p>

<p>If you were indeed being sincere, let me tell you: I couldn’t agree more. And I don’t think it should just be limited to Calc. How about “Literature for Math Nerds”: the analysis and deconstruction of literature in a logical and mathematical way? Or “U.S. History for Science Geeks”: learn American history from a scientific point of view; what make the Transcontinental Railroad work? What was the technology behind the cotton gin?</p>

<p>These kinds of classes would create the best of both worlds: exposing everyone to subjects outside their comfort zone but still relating it back to their interests to help them actually understand, remember, and even use the material.</p>

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<p>I was very serious about Calculus for Poets. </p>

<p>At my daughter’s HS, the only teacher to teach calculus made it very clear that he geared the class toward future engineers and math majors. Anyone who was not majoring in engineering, he said, should not take the class. He told my daughter to not take the class, because she was not a future engineer. So our whole family agonized over what to do. She took an online calculus class that she barely passed. We would have much preferred a Calculus for Poets class.</p>

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<p>Wait…are you being sarcastic and saying, “Just because Calc is gearing towards engineering/math majors doesn’t mean others shouldn’t take it”? Or are you being serious? It’s hard to tell over the Internet; sorry. :stuck_out_tongue: But I’m guessing you’re being sarcastic. Oh, well; I really believe that interdisciplinary classes like “Calculus for Poets” and “Lit for Math Nerds” would be very beneficial.</p>

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<p>“These kinds of classes would create the best of both worlds: exposing everyone to subjects outside their comfort zone but still relating it back to their interests to help them actually understand, remember, and even use the material.”</p>

<p>Unfortunately, you’ll have to get into college to take those kinds of classes.</p>

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<p>Yeah, it truly is unfortunate though. If high school were reformed to include those types of classes, I think there’d be a much higher retention rate and even more people going to college.</p>

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<p>Alright WhiteCadillac. You win. Math doesn’t matter and you’re getting into brown. You win, we don’t know what we’re talking about. Brown is going to see your below average math curriculum and your bad SAT math score and say, “Now that’s who we want!” I had almost forgotten that colleges desire 15, 16, and 17 year olds who have decided what is important in the world and what isn’t.</p>

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<p>Uhh…he already said that he’s going to take Pre-Cal or Calc. And you signed up here just to say that? Wow. You really know what’s important in this world obviously! Haha.</p>