Can't find the right college....What should we do?

Parents Forum
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<p>Our S has recently been looking at colleges,but can't seem to find a college that is a fit for him. There are colleges that are a perfect match for him,but they are astronomical reaches.</p>

<p>He is mature extremely bright kid with an IQ in the upper 130s and is most likely one of the smartest people at his school. His teachers love him and are surprised at how much he actually knows. He is constantly learning by reading books,Wikipedia,scientific journals or by trying new ideas and things. He leads his school's mock trial team to be nationally ranked and has won 1st place in 3 State Science fairs.He is also extremely passionate with politics.</p>

<p>But his grades are a problem. While he can go in and ace tests without a problem. Getting high 80s to 100s on every test. But he can't seem to do the homework or classwork as well. He gets 30% or 40% homework average which leads to Bs and rarely Cs. And he is terrible at foreign languages getting a D his freshmen year. But that is more manageable since we are going to try to work it into his IEP.... I personally think he just doesn't like to "prove" his knowledge and learn in the way schools want.</p>

<p>With that said it seems like no college will "work". He looks for schools for the right reasons, such as programs he wants,location,size and we can't seem to find anything that he could get into. Prestige or ranking isn't important,but we want something that is well known for their academics and research. He just doesn't want to end up with kids who aren't bright and hate learning. I as a teacher know the difference between kids in AP classes and kids in "college prep" classes, and it is huge. He want to go to the "AP of colleges" not the "prep of colleges". </p>

<p>Is there anything out there for my son?
It is late, I will post what we are looking for in a college tomorrow.</p>

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<p>It's a tricky problem, because colleges look at many things when they make admissions decisions, but grades are very important. You know why, because being smart is great, but being willing and able to complete the work is key. If they see a pattern of high scores but not corresponding high grades, they can infer this is a student who isn't as likely to sit down and get the work done.</p>

<p>In the defense of colleges that aren't "AP of colleges" however, there are lots of good schools and many have surprisingly talented students. It would be unfair to paint the less selective schools with such a broad brush, although you're likely to perhaps find a greater range of talents and abilities in them.</p>

<p>You might want to look at honors programs at some larger publics. Also if your son has high test scores and mostly Bs as grades, that's still pretty good for most colleges. Maybe not the very most selective ones, but those schools are going to be full of kids who really are disciplined workers and maybe wouldn't be a good fit for him anyway.</p>

<p>I have a pretty wide perspective on this. My oldest is at a <em>very</em> selective LAC. My younger is opting for the honors program at our public univ. even though her test scores are actually higher, and her grades are perfect. She won't have classes full of geniuses in every instance, but she'll get as much out of her education as she puts in, and there will be plenty of kids in the honors program classes who are very sharp.</p>

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<p>I didn't mean to be critical of all colleges by saying colleges don't have talented students,but the concentration is different.</p>

<p>You say look for an honors program at a state university.But our only state university doesn't offer an honors program. Not to mention none of the programs there are "strong" and the location is terrible.
He want to leave the state as soon as possible as well.</p>

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<p>I would suggest that you look at New College of Florida. It is small, pubic liberal arts honors college but with stellar academics and opportunity for research with faculty- a senior thesis with defense is required. Very successful with Fulbrights and grad school admission. You get narrative evaluations rather than letter grades and you really do know your professor. It is not easy and it requires motivation and self-direction. But, my d has survived and thrived. Good luck.</p>

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<p>Take a look at the Colleges that Change Lives (Loren Pope). Do a search here at CC and you will find lots of info about them. You have not mentioned whether your son is a senior or if he's taken the SAT or SAT IIs. Depending on where he is on the journey he may have more options open to get him more prepared for applications. Good luck to him!</p>

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<p>The problem is not finding college bu how he will perform there. It looks like your S is perfectly capable at achieving the highest grades, but if he is not willing to do the work, then his grades in college will continue the same pattern. Then,....a lot of companies are requiring college GPA on their employment application. I was asked my college GPA after 25 years of experience. I told them that I did not remember and had to estimate it based on Magna Cum Laude. The point is that it is extremely important to have a decent GPA to show that you got working ethic to do the work. </p>

<p>In regard to Honors programs at state colleges, they also have high reguiremnts. My D. is in Honors at state college. Her Honors required to be top 2% of class with ACT=32 or higher. Otherwise, state college is just fine. D. was surprised by classes being much more challenging then she expected. </p>

<p>The best wishes.</p>

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<p>I know of someone similiar. She is extremely bright, high ACT, but didn't turn in homework and was failing classes. After a year at a university she returned home to go to a community college and was taking a class in learning study skills. Maybe a class in learning study skills first would help.</p>

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<p>I'm not sure New College of Florida would be a good fit for ITERs S. It is a great school but requires a tremendous amount of self discipline. Check the four year graduation rate, too. The academics are terrific but the student needs to put in the work. I have a S who sounds very similar to ITERs who loved New College, participated in everything, learned a lot about a lot of subjects but never quite managed to earn a degree after spending 7 years there! He would have stayed longer but the parental spigot was turned off.</p>

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<p>I agree that the issue is that your son will have trouble if he doesn't do the work. Perhaps a gap year or a year at a community college would provide a good transition. This is a very common problem, but, unfortunately, at college there is no one to crack the whip about homework and keeping up with daily reading. These are the kids that flunk out.</p>

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<p>The young man sounds like a perfect match for math/science at a large public university. I recall many classes where the entire grade was based on midterm and final exams! </p>

<p>It's hard to provide meaningful advice without knowing your S better. If he's indeed mature then he knows that skipping homework will place him at competitive disadvantage in HS and college. If he's merely somewhat mature, for example thinking that (boring) homework shouldn't count for much, then that's a very different issue. Good luck with this.</p>

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<p>Just re-read your post to see that your son does have an IEP. I do wonder just how effective it has been though in helping him master executive function skills. Have they insisted that he use a planner and that you and the teachers sign off on it? By this point in his school career, he should be better at turning in his homework. This really worries me. He may need more LD support in college if he is still struggling with this in HS.</p>

<p>As to the foreign language problem, which languages the school offers and the way they are taught can have a big effect on the actual learn-ability from the student's perspective. If they are using a more traditional "grammar-translation" type methodology, it is going to be a lot harder for anyone than if they use a "communicative" methodology. If he needs language to graduate, see if he can test out of it by doing coursework somewhere else. I am a big fan of Berlitz (I currently teach English and Spanish for Berlitz, so I admit to a bias here), the methodology is entirely communicative and the classes are personalized, but the programs are expensive. If you can find someone experienced in Berlitz-type methodology it might help through the language stuff.</p>

<p>Wishing you and your family all the best.</p>

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<p>What is his diagnosis and reason for the IEP? High IQ does not always equate to high functioning in the real world. Does he have the self discipline to keep up with the daily reading and assignments without special accommodations?</p>

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<p>Perhaps looking at these colleges can be a "wake up call" for your son. "You want to go to Colleges X, Y or Z? Well, these schools require higher grades. Look at it pragmatically - doing your homework is the price of admission to these schools. Bring the grades up and you might have a chance. Otherwise, you won't. It's your choice."</p>

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<p>I agree with a gap year or community college for 2 years. If your s could go to a good cc and get this gen ed out of the way, possibly an AA and even make the honor roll, he would be in much better shape for a 4 year.</p>

<p>Supposedly, the applying class of 2009 is going to be the largest in history. This is a result of the "baby boomer" generation having college age kids coming up. </p>

<p>At the 9 schools that we have visited this year (7 last month), all of them are looking for a "well rounded" student with grades averaging 3.5-3.9, AP or honors classes to show that the student has challenged themself, EC's and SAT and/or ACT of 1650+ for 3 parts on the SAT and 26+ on ACT.</p>

<p>If all of the components are there except grades, it may show an imbalance and explanation in a personal statement or essay might help to explain to the college why.</p>

<p>It does seem, however, that they are looking for a student to be successful in college, and we all realize that there are no guarantees of that.</p>

<p>As other posts have said, find out what his desire is for higher education and if that means a 4 year school, a trade school, a cc or certificate program.</p>

<p>As a Mom of 3 boys, I have 1 that was much like your son. Could pass tests and do well with subjects that he liked....saw the others as a waste of time. He is now 24 and a Paramedic (not an easy program to get through)!</p>

<p>S2 is the "social animal". Loved the social aspect of school, barely graduated with a 3.0 but is at a CC doing a certificate program for Airline and Travel Careers...loves, loves, loves it and doing quite well. Starts training at the airport tomorrow on 9/11...a bit eeery!</p>

<p>S3 has the grades and the motivation to go to a 4 year for Engineering/Performing Arts and is working on college apps as we speak.</p>

<p>These personal examples are only meant to show the absolute diversity that there is in education options and that even within 1 family options can be found for each individual path.</p>

<p>Good luck and hang in there. :)</p>

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<p>Perhaps looking at these colleges can be a "wake up call" for your son. "You want to go to Colleges X, Y or Z? Well, these schools require higher grades. Look at it pragmatically - doing your homework is the price of admission to these schools. Bring the grades up and you might have a chance. Otherwise, you won't. It's your choice."</p>

<p>I agree with Chedva's comments. My concern as a parent is that if he's unwilling to do the homework grind at home while I'm there, what makes you think he would do it while away at a college and you're not there? Your son is obviously bright, but right now he sounds like he needs to mature some more. I empathize; my youngest was this way. He is astounding me with how hard he has been working on homework in college thus far, although he hasn't actually been graded on anything yet. Time will tell.</p>

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<p>op wrote
[quote]
He just doesn't want to end up with kids who aren't bright and hate learning. I as a teacher know the difference between kids in AP classes and kids in "college prep" classes, and it is huge. He want to go to the "AP of colleges" not the "prep of colleges".

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I would like to think there will be bright and love learning kids in every school and there will be kids who aren't bright and hate learning in every school.</p>

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<p>It sounds as if your S would have no problem if he were being graded only on the tests and papers. It is the "homework grades" that are dragging him down. </p>

<p>This is one of the most frustrating things imaginable. My S suffered from this to come extent also. He would get a 93 for the quarter instead of a 97 or 98 in a subject where he had tested as first or second in the state for three years on the national exam because of a couple of missing homeworks. He simply refused beyond a certain point to grub for grades. He would generally get all As with the occasional B+ because of this. He ended up with an A average and excellent college acceptances, but had he pushed for those points he might have gotten into a couple of places where his classmates who DID grub for straight As were more successful.</p>

<p>I noted this tendency in my gifted S at an early age, and in junior high started stressing to him that HE would be the one whose options were eventually limited if he let his disregard for jumping through (to him) meaningless hoops or his lack of respect for a teacher's intellect lead him to disregard their wishes and get poor grades. </p>

<p>In college, your S is unlikely to be downgraded for not doing "homework"--at least not at the right type of school--and he is more likely to be able to take courses he's interested in. I would suggest that he try for a couple of places like Reed and the University of Chicago that actually appreciate the true intellectual, even though they may be reaches on paper. Whether he will be able to get in with his grades is another matter. I think that he would need to present SATs well over 700 or the equivalent ACT. I would also suggest that he take a look at Pitt, which has a good honors college where he would find peers, and the honors tutorial college at Ohio University. The College of Wooster might be another possibility that would be significantly easier to get into. Consider the University of Rochester also. It's a great place that is somewhat overlooked because for some unknown reason the PR doesn't include it in the book of "best" colleges.</p>

<p>I hope your son isn't a senior. Even if he is, I think that Chedva's advice to present this to him as a wakeup call is excellent. If he is able to buckle down and cross the Ts and dot the Is for at least the first semester of senior year, and if he is able to address this revelation in his application, his chances of getting into the kind of school that would engage his mind would probably be better. Worst case scenario: he does this for his entire senior year, applies to places he really wants to go, and is prepared to take a gap year if he doesn't get in. He would have an entire year of dramatically-improved grades to show when re-applying next year.</p>

<p>I don't know, of course, why he has an IEP and whether those issues would affect this scenario.</p>

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<p>I respectfully disagree with much of the advice in this thread. </p>

<p>Kids who are interested in learning but bad at busy work should not go to community college, IMO. Community college TENDS --I am sure there are exceptions--to have more homework assignments and more quizzes than a regular 4 year college. The kid who does better on the big items--finals and major papers--than on every day homework is better off going to a 4 year college where there are usually just a few major tests and papers. This is true ONLY if your kid is the kind who really does the work to learn the material during the semester, but just isn't good about doing daily assignments and hates anything he views as "busy work." </p>

<p>I'd have your kid take as many standardized tests as possible if he does well on them. A B in US history on a transcript will be offset substantially by an 800 on the SAT II and 5 on the AP. So, IF he does well on standardized tests, have him apply to some of his reaches. Do not count on getting in, just give it a try. It MAY work. </p>

<p>If he's lousy at foreign language, look for colleges that do not require it to get a degree. There are MANY such colleges. </p>

<p>As a male, he's much wanted by some of the gender-imbalanced LACs. This may make them more willing to take a chance on him than a university would. So, look at some good LACs which tend to run 60% female. Add some of these to your list to explore. </p>

<p>If the D in freshman year is the only D, look at colleges that don't count 9th grade. I may be out of date, but the last I knew UMichigan and Princeton among others do not count 9th grade at all. Almost every college discounts it heavily, especially for boys. </p>

<p>Consider looking at colleges in the UK. (There's another thread on the board about that.) From what I've seen, grades mean virtually nothing when applying to UK colleges. It's all about AP and SAT II scores and the interview. This system may favor your son. You might look at the Scottish colleges, which unlike the English ones, are 4 years. Last I knew, St. Andrew's was about 10% American; it may be more now. </p>

<p>If your son is a junior, consider sending him to one of the good summer programs, e.g., the summer program at Exeter or Andover. See how he does with that sort of challenge. It will give you some idea whether he will rise to the occassion in college. </p>

<p>Good luck!</p>

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<p>I agree with Jonri about the unsuitability of CC for a student like your S. It strikes me as precisely the wrong environment for the reasons she cites.</p>

<p>By the way, have you considered Sarah Lawrence? A very interesting school that might suit him well, depending on his interests.</p>

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<p>This is not far off from my oldest, who just began his first year at a CTCL school. I'd second checking out the website and buying the book. These schools can work extremely well for bright kids who haven't performed too well. (My DS had a problem doing homework he didn't learn from and could not constitutionally grub for grades--part of me has to respect that.) And, given our experience, I think strong SATs can make up for a weak GPA to some extent. He also had good ECs and strong teacher recommendations. </p>

<p>It isn't all about the GPA.</p>