<p>Wondering if anyone has something to say about Denison vs. Kenyon, Grinnell, DePauw, Carleton and the like - in short, has anyone seen quite a few of the Midwestern favorites (LACs) and found Denison to really stand out? Any info about differences in pre-professional programs, enthusiasm about athletic events (have an athlete), great school spirit, fabulous alumni networks, etc - this is the stuff that we are looking at generally at this point. S is a junior at a school in Chicago so being far from a city would be difficult if the school spirit wasn't very "lively" to compensate for a rural location. Thanks for any and all comments you may wish to share.</p>
<p>Son and I visited Kenyon, Denison, Carleton and Grinnell. We did not visit DePauw, primarily because I did not think the big Greek presence would appeal to him. Denison is similar to Carleton in that it is in a charming small town near a larger metro area. Granville is an absolute gem of a small town. Of course at Kenyon, the college IS essentially the town. Kenyon's campus is the quintessential campus--absolutely beautiful, though Denison is no slouch in that department either.
Random impressions: students at Carleton and Grinnell are quirkier, fun-loving, but more studious. These schools (and perhaps Kenyon as well) seem to be academically more challenging than Denison.<br>
Dension gives exceptional financial aid. Although not the largest, it was by far the best offer Son got, when quality of the school was factored in. It was one of his final two, but after the final visits Spring of Sr. year, he felt more comfortable at Grinnell. Grinnell has a 9:1 student:faculty ratio and no requirements other than a first year tutorial, which really appealed to him.<br>
Most of these schools have so much going on, that I don't think being in a small town is much of an issue. Carleton and Grinnell both have tons of lectures, clubs, activities and if that's not enough they have shuttle buses to nearby metro areas on weekends.</p>
<p>Concur with many of Dairy's points. Ours is @ DU; lots to do, they too bus kids to Easton Mall each weekend; don't know about the comparative academics, but DU is plenty challenging for ours; DU has as part of its current strategic plan an overt intent/niche strategy to use FA to recruit strong, well rounded "middle class" family students, those who are becoming "extinct" on many high end campuses like Kenyon, Grinnell, Carleton, Bucknell, Wake Forest, etc. It is very effective and noteworthy if one is in this niche.</p>
<p>DU has had a very significant campus culture shift over the past 15 years. The previous president was politically successful in aligning the Board in order to discontinue residential living in frats/sororities. In turn, the U. purchased the houses and converted them into residences. Concurrently, they determined that all students must live on campus all 4 years. These 3 things ...FA, frats, residential requirements ...have had a very dramatic impact on DU, most notably that it is a far stronger place for serious students. That said, I'd also agree that students are probably not quite so "quirky" as Kenyon, Oberlin, Grinnell, perhaps Carleton, and while anything but politically conservative, is probably a bit more balanced. It's probably even more "apolitical." I'd guess once November comes and goes, politics will not have much presence in the student union conversations. DU's a bit schizophrenic re: athletics. Tons of kids participate, aside from the occasional night football game vs. Wooster or the LAX meet vs. Ohio Weslyan, not much student spectating. Still, swimming is 2nd only to Kenyon, LAX has been very strong, some of the minor sports have been pretty good. DU usually wins the conference overall title ...includes Wittenberg, Oberlin, Wooster, Case Western, Hiram, Allegheny, OWU, Earlham, Kenyon. None are gonna threaten Michigan or UCLA, but similar type places. Some decent coaches, some terrible/essentially caretaking, throw out the ball, and cheerlead. Granville is one of the prettiest of "little college towns" on the planet. DU campus is attractive, diverse in architectural style, stunning location on top hill, spectacular in fall with many mature trees and views. Clearly, a place on the move, working hard to shift its perceptual and substantive niche. btw, while we're not big proponents of Greek scenery on small campuses, there seems to be a genuine sense of purpose, focus and opportunity without becoming overly cliquish. Lots of service, some socializing focused around these things, but not so "exclusive" as at many places. Also, some very unique outreach programs @ DU ...they've developed an urban recruitment (many are minorities as you might suspect) program with a specific foundation (can't remember at present) in Chicago and Boston. About 35% of kids are buckeye natives. Also, there is a significant contact with China. Over 20 kids in this years frosh class from China. 49 states and I think they said about 30 countries in class. So while like virtually every one of its competitors, it's essentially "white", its more diverse than one might perceive. Also, they've made the classes smaller in recent years to enhance selectivity, target FA, manage and sustain academic quality and facilities. So far, we're fans, mostly because while it's far from perfect, we really appreciate many of the plans, tactics/programs/activities, and values that the U. is working to implement, execute. DU has a large endowment, and is one of the best in the country when one measures ... endowment/undergrad student. It has no graduate programs, nor does it have the grossly expensive undergrad programs that suck up $$ ...engineering, nursing, PT, IT, and some others. The administration is mature, balanced, commited to being at DU (vs. stepping stone type of place, it seems). All these things can and will come to bear on a student's experience. Most pragmatically? Ours has made some very nice friends, is happy, and is working like mad in the classroom and library with too many reading courses this term. She seems to be getting our money's worth. :cool:</p>
<p>Whistle Pig, do you feel that she feels too much pressure academically, and if so, is that typical for the average DU student?</p>
<p>Perhaps. But we're writing it off to one of the things we did not appreciate about DU. Going to the last early orientation events, and thus meeting with student and faculty advisors, she got the dregs in courses. Now, the courses are not bad, but neither are they balanced. Thus the overload in reading. </p>
<p>This is the very type of thing that is difficult, sometimes impossible to assess in advance, and at the same time is the very type of thing ...real substantial...that smaller, individualized places should be very careful and attentive to along with very careful assigning and coaching of academic advisors. But our feeling, hope is she'll get thru this and be more able to "own" the process in coming semesters. DU's vision seems to have some balance to it, i.e. be very challenging and rich in academics while at the same time nurturing community engagement and campus involvement. The faculty have not fully taken over the process yet. </p>
<p>Speaking of this, there seems to be emphasis on enlisting students in any, all faculty research and to use that as a teaching/learning vehicle vs. the nearly always deluded notion that the faculty are designing and doing earth-shattering developments. In fact, even at the Michigans and Penn States, only a very few manage to conduct successful, ongoing research programs of any consequence. You'll rarely read about that though because ...well, it's self-evident.</p>
<p>Whistle Pig, thanks. I hope your D gets through the rough patches regarding reading. It is a shame that they did not reserve a set number of seats for each class per orientation (I assume that they did not). Some schools do that so the person at the 4th orientation does not get "the left overs" (ie: all 8am classes, 3 math classes in one semester, etc.).</p>
<p>Thanks for the informative responses. I'd be very disappointed if your daughter wasn't being extremely challenged, Whistle Pig; if I remember correctly, she was the valedictorian at her high school so if she's challenged I'd bet that everyone else feels the same. Thanks as well to Dairy State for the Grinnell info. A couple of kids from our town love it there from what we've been told, so we'll have to explore that school further. I really appreciate the help!</p>
<p>Thanks Epinomis ...yes, she's getting a workout, and we're hoping she is nurturing some intellectual "muscle" in this experience and finding her way in many respects. She's being challenged and learning about learning...which may include figuring out both what and how to read, study, etc. when the molehill becomes mountainous. </p>
<p>We've discussed this before, but I'll throw it out for food for thought ...I'm persuaded that many of the places being discussed here...selective MIDWESTERN colleges...offer great, perhaps superior value for the educational dollar and timeclock. Why? Getting someone(s), notably 17 and 18 year olds who are sure they know alot, perceive life may end once more than 50 miles from the beach on either coast, and most certainly NEVER dreamed of going to the U. in Iowa ... or Ohio ... or Minnesota ... or anywhere but LA, Boston, NYC or somewhere within spitting distance of these latter metroplexes . And as well, the population centers being near those latter towns, well there's a natural adolescent affinity. As one New England counselor told me, "heck our khaki clad, poloed kids think the world ends at the Hudson ..." Well, in context of those observations, I'm convinced these places have to deliver on their promises, or risk severe mediocrity or worse. Sophistication and suave are severely overrated, imo. Much to be said for Midwestern culture and values, imo. And education too. Just my opionion, and worth exactly what it costs.</p>
<p>Point well taken, Whistle Pig, although I'm still very impressed with the honor codes at most of the southern colleges that we've researched. Additionally, the climate tends to be more outdoor-sports friendly. While there are a few colleges our son is considering out east, the majority are midwestern and southern.</p>
<p>agreed. W&L, Davidson are special places too, imo. my own view is that character is constructed @ home more than campus legislation. the major differences in these places is the overt punishment. while we're Believers, I don't embrace the notion of students signing a dogmatic document. seems to me the ultimate value is simply using that as a premise for punishing violators vs. instructing values. ultimately, I see the same among honor codes in civilian institutions. VERY different tho in service academies, where it's tied to life and death issues and must be overtly, frequently instructed, imo.</p>
<p>that said, I totally agree that there are a number of Southern schools that are very fine values, and differentiated from their Northeastern competitors.</p>
<p>Hi, Epinomis!
My dd went to Denison and now my son is a frosh at DePauw. In many areas these are the same schools in different states! My dd loved Denison and had a great 4 years there. I have to agree with whistlepig on sports, atmosphere, academics, ets.
Let me compare:
Sports/spirit: I think a little better at Depauw. The football game is much better attended than ones at DU.
Academics: tie so far. Challenging courses but faculty/advisors really work with the student. No grad students so the undergrad gets full attention and benefit of the profs.
Town: has to go to DU. Granville is a charming town. Greencastle, not so much. But on both campuses there is much to do and the college brings in concerts, speakers, etc. on regular basis. Denison has shuttle to Columbus, DePauw does not offer shuttle to Indianapolis.
Greek: DePauw is heavily Greek, no question. About 75% of students are. Don't know how this will play out with my son yet. He is going to rush in the Spring. He is not into drinking/partying but there is definitely alot of that going on. So far, he is handling ok. the college is addressing the issue but not as far along as Denison in doing something about it.
I am hopeful that my son has as good experience overall as my daughter. So far he is really enjoying college and as made some friends.
We live in Chicago area and love the fact that DePauw is only 4 hours away vs. 7 hours for Denison.</p>
<p>ergkitty...HI! ...you're SOOOO right about the time issue. When the philosophical "oh what is distance in our shrinking world" gets transformed into miles, hours, gallons of $3-5/gal gas, and who's gonna get him/her this trip ...well those do bring chickens home to roost. :confused:</p>