<p>I go to Carleton and just wonder if people here think that as a general rule Carleton students are immature. And is this the case with Carleton more than other schools? I just find that a lot of people here act really childishly, are not considerate of others (talking in a room where everyone is working, trashing public spaces), and think they are superior to some degree (for example, St. Olaf shirts that say Because a GED just doesn't cut it anymore). I love Carleton for the professors and the courses, but the students here get to me sometimes. Have you found this? And why do you think this is?</p>
<p>There are obnoxious people everywhere. Carleton isn’t perfect, but I’ve found that the awesome Carls greatly outnumber the obnoxious ones.</p>
<p>I definitely know what you’re talking about - I have seen a lot more privileged people here who act like jerks about it than I thought I would - but like mflevity, I agree that I have met so many amazing people that they outnumber and outshine the others by a lot. It’s just unfortunate that oftentimes it is the obnoxious behavior of a few that we notice more.</p>
<h1>carletonnorules</h1>
<p>I agree with both mflevity and imbri3. I have definitely met some people who are immature in various ways, or say/do inconsiderate things. Having said that, I feel like a) you will find these people everywhere (and a lot of my friends at different schools have basically confirmed this) because people grow at different rates, and b) the amazing people I’ve met far outnumber those I’d rather forget.</p>
<p>In general, I feel this way about life, not just at Carleton. THere will always be immature or outspoken people, but it is college. THere will be immature people wherever you go, and part of life is learning to deal with it. They’ll grow up eventually.</p>
<p>You guys are giving Carleton a bad rap that it simply doesn’t deserve… if you can’t look past the occasional drunken shenanigan (drawing chalk on buildings, etc.) or the occasional insulting t-shirt (hey, we’re sports rivals, it’s all in good fun), then maybe you are the one who needs to grow up. I found the people at Carleton to be nothing less than kind, open, and accepting. If someone’s being a little too loud in the library, ask them to quiet down. I’ve asked this and been asked this, and it’s been fine both times. If you’re too shy/awkward/whatever to make this request, then hey, the blame’s on you. As a parting note: y’all be careful with calling yourselves mature. It’s socially isolating and developmentally restrictive for you guys to blanket entire sectors of the college as “immature.” If partying isn’t for you (I’m getting the vibe that you guys aren’t big partyers, so forgive me if I’m wrong, but I feel like a lot of the “immaturity” that’s being complained about stems from drunken shenanigans), then fine, but there is a lot to be said about the value of the party scene on a college campus. I won’t get into it here, but it’s helped me grow as a person in a lot of (non-trivial) ways.</p>
<p>^I essentially feel the same way as you do about Carleton, Drought. I didn’t mean to come off poorly in any way and I definitely don’t want to give it a bad rap because I love the school, and I feel like I have grown immensely as a person simply in one year. I was just trying to express that no matter where you go, there will always be some people who are immature, but the majority are wonderful, open, and accepting. I’m certainly not the most mature person…I may or may not have aided with the Dumble-door prank earlier this year. :)</p>
<p>I hope you’re not referring to me anyway, but if you are, I’ll just add that I don’t see anything wrong with having fun. As your classmate (and a fellow athlete, haha), there’s actually a very good chance that I’ve met you in person, and even gone to the same parties as you, without either of us realizing it. Haha.</p>
<p>Drought, I think you’re reading into these responses a little too much. When I first saw the original post, my initial reaction was to write a long post about how amazing Carleton is, how down-to-earth and accepting the students are, etc. etc. etc. But after a minute of thought, I realized that yeah, I’ve come across a few people here that I would rather avoid. I wasn’t referring to any behavior in particular; I was trying to be honest about the fact that even though I love our school, I don’t necessarily feel the same way about every one of its students. It’s just as dishonest to tell prospective students that Carleton is a paradise as it is to tell them exaggerated versions of everything you hate about the place.</p>
<p>As far as “immature,” I think it can mean at least three different things when it comes to college students:</p>
<h1>1 Being inconsiderate, catty, or selfish</h1>
<h1>2 Partying (whatever that means to you), or</h1>
<h1>3 Enjoying “kid stuff” (Harry Potter, Disney movies, eating inordinate amounts of macaroni and cheese, etc.)</h1>
<p>I was under the impression that the OP was talking about #1, but Drought seems to have assumed that it was #2. Maybe the OP will post again and explain a bit more.</p>
<p>Parent here. I can’t speak to what goes on on campus but felt compelled to comment on the trash-talking of St. Olaf as being “childish.” It’s a rivalry, that’s all. My ds tells me Oles wear shirts that say “Carleton Sucks.” Not a big deal. That’s like saying everyone at Army is childish because they trash-talk Navy and vice versa. Or Ohio State and Michigan. Or Texas-OU. It’s just pride in your school.</p>
<p>Yeah, I agree with you mflevity, the majority of Carls are cool, but there are a few that can spoil the bunch. I was referring to the #1 type of people in your list (I love a lot of kid’s stuff, and partying’s fine for the most part). I just think people here are so used to being told how great they are that they get a sense of entitlement, and don’t really think about how their actions can affect people negatively. I, for example, have heard people badmouth and act inconsiderately towards custodial staff, and staff people at Sayles. I saw not just a few, but many students going to the dorms and stealing the stuff that had been dropped off for the ACT sale. People say that we want an environmentally friendly campus, but they leave the lights, TVs and computers on when they’re done with them. People talk on first libe despite the fact that it’s supposed to be “monastery quiet”. Gamers occupy the computer lab in the CMC 24 hours a day, with the volumes turned up high making it difficult for others to work. And people are loud when others are trying to sleep. I have often been woken up even on weeknights at 3 or 4 AM from people shouting or talking loudly in my building or outside. I mean, I’m sure you’ll encounter a lot of this at almost any college you go to, but I still wish that people could be a little bit more cognizant of the people around them, and not feel like the world belongs to them.</p>
<p>Yes, I was also talking about #1, and I was specifically thinking of what Clevelandude said about the way some people act towards facilities staff at the college in addition to other behavior like that. But again, for the most part people are overwhelmingly nice and accepting (that is one of the main factors that made me want to come here so much, was the warm personality of the people I encountered when I prospied).</p>
<p>I don’t know, I don’t mean to be badmouthing the school or anything, I love Carleton. I just think that a lot of Carls are intellectually gifted but emotionally immature. I just think it’s a product of having a lot of kids who were not necessarily in the mainstream of social life in high school, and so never developed real social graces. I feel that a lot were the type that always had their head in their books, not that that’s a bad thing, but it means that they took/take academics more seriously than they do acting in a socially courteous way toward other people.</p>
<p>“You guys are giving Carleton a bad rap that it simply doesn’t deserve… if you can’t look past the occasional drunken shenanigan (drawing chalk on buildings, etc.) or the occasional insulting t-shirt (hey, we’re sports rivals, it’s all in good fun), then maybe you are the one who needs to grow up.”</p>
<p>Seconded.</p>
<p>First of all, a minor segway. Youdon’tsay, I think the problem with the shirt that it’s not a traditional “<insert the=”" name=“” of=“” university=“”> sucks" shirt. It’s a shirt that refers to St. Olaf as “Northfield Community College.” To many, it comes off as yet another manifestation of an elitist attitude towards St. Olaf/Northfield, because we have heard students on campus disrespect St. Olaf/Northfield with regard to their “crappy education” a couple of times. Whether the shirt was intended as such or not, I do not know.</insert></p>
<p>Thanks for bringing up this interesting topic, Clevelandude. I am inclined to agree with what Drought said on the nature of immaturity; if we are talking about partying/frolicking in the rain/other behavior that is usually associated with children but is not harmless – we are known not to take ourselves too seriously, and this is a manifestation of that. If it’s not hurting anyone, what’s the problem?</p>
<p>That being said, I don’t think that Clevelandude is expressing his concern about the party scene in general, I think it has more to do with the attitude of entitlement (consistent, not occasional, disrespect of custodial and other college staff being an example of that), and simple lack of respect/courtesy evident through stealing of the stuff donated to the LIGHTEN UP sale, etc. Drawing pen!ses on building windows overnight might not be ‘bad’ by itself as long as you remove it on time, but when you do that only after you get caught, it is a different situation. A grad from 2 years ago said “you can’t have no elitism at a school that costs $50,000 a year” implying that with so many rich people such behavior is inevitable. I don’t agree with that – I have certainly seen responsible rich people and irresponsible poor ones, but maybe there is something to this? An important thing to mention though, at this school almost everyone thinks of the atmosphere as very down to earth and humble, despite all of these incidents. I think it’s a sign that Carleton is as good as it gets, and other places are not better, if not much worse. I am not from here so I can’t tell, but in that case we should appreciate what we have here at Carleton. I feel like the root of your concern lies in the fact that everyone describes Carleton as a place filled with humble people, and yet this kind of stuff happens routinely. I think that the description might have given you a very idealistic idea of what the school is like, but you should also remember that people who commit such actions, even if there are very few of them, stand out a lot, while the ones who are humble and mature in a sense of respect to the ones around them are not so visible. Maybe that sheds light on why you see “so much” of this behavior even at Carleton.</p>
<p>In any case, thanks again for bringing this up. There’s been a lot of opposition to minorities (ethnic/socio-economic/etc.) speaking up, so I am glad you are speaking your mind out.</p>
<p>*by “is not harmless” I of course meant “is harmless” :)</p>
<p>^the only point with which I’ll disagree is the shirt. St. Olaf’s “Carleton Sucks” shirts were meant to make fun of Carleton’s “Cancer Sucks” shirts - in other words, making fun of our cancer fundraiser. The font/layout between the two shirts is nearly identical. I believe that the people who created the Northfield Community College Shirts made them because they were angry that St. Olaf kids would make fun of a shirt dedicated to raising money for sarcoma research, so they wanted to make the shirts slightly more offensive than usual.</p>
<p>I guess I understand a little more now that you provide the backstory reesezpiecez, but my own issue with the Northfield Community College shirts is that they seem to make an assumption that people who go to community colleges are somehow inferior to people who go to colleges like Carleton, otherwise I don’t think they would be using it as an insult to St. Olaf. It just seems kind of elitist to me. (And also ignores the fact that St. Olaf is also a fairly prestigious private liberal arts college that excels in different fields than Carleton)</p>
<p>Good grief. It’s a JOKE. My ds has one of those shirts, and, guess what? I went to a community college. I am not the least bit insulted, and I can still beat him in Scrabble (usually).</p>
<p>I’m guessing you don’t play or follow sports. This kind of stuff really is commonplace. My current favorite joke: Cleveland declared today LeBron James Day – all employees get to quit 12 minutes early. Does telling that joke mean I think I’m a better basketball player than LeBron James? No. I’m a Mavs fan and so am just talking a little smack. That’s all.</p>
<p>^Agreed. My family is originally from Boston and I’ve grown up hearing all sorts of crap about the Yankees. My cousin has a shirt from 2004 that said “ichoke” and has a silhouette of a Yankees player being choked by an i-pod cord. Obviously it isn’t funny if you start thinking about the realities of strangling people, people hanging themselves, suicide, etc., but it’s a sports rivalry that always gets a little ridiculous. I’ve grown up with these kinds of rivalries - from the Red Sox-Yankees rivalry to rival soccer teams un my hometown - and it’s just the way they work. My dad went to Michigan. He has a shirt about “Notre Dame Community College Football.”</p>
<p>The shirts in question are very typical of a sports rivalry. Not that I’m saying rivalries don’t get extreme or immature, just that it doesn’t automatically mean “Carleton students are immature/elitist” when it’s an activity typical of people all over the U.S. I can’t understand why these specific shirts would indicate that Carleton students alone are immature when millions of other people do the same. What’s worse, inadvertently making fun of community colleges or inadvertently making fun of a kid who died from cancer? I don’t find either shirt particularly offensive in comparison to the other, but then, I know that neither of them are actually serious.</p>
<p>“It’s a joke” can be used to validate absolutely any joke, yet I think we will all agree that there is a certain threshold after which we are uncomfortable. I think the story that reesezpiecez provides goes back to one of my points – Carleton is not ideal, but it was never supposed to be, and it’s probably better than many other places (consider the “joke” done by St. Olaf that reesezpiecez describes). And I as I already said, Youdon’tsay, while I agree that sports rivalries (and consequent offensive paraphernalia, etc.) are commonplace, messages that exhibit classism, are not. Would you be fine with a shirt that took a racist jibe at St. Olaf because it was “just a joke” and “everyone does it all the time” (which is relevant only for comparative purposes, but not for the absolute purposes)? What about a shirt that said, say, “St. Olaf footballers play like women?” Personally, I am made very uncomfortable by any of the above, despite the fact that I did not go to a community college, am not of a minority race (white American raised abroad), and am not a woman. Also, something to consider: if you review the last campus climate surveys, you will discover that virtually in all of them the minority students have the same complaint, that goes along the following lines: “We really dislike/hate Carleton. No one listens to us and to our concerns go unanswered. People make assumptions about our identity, and promote stereotypes via jokes [this is the important part] that they do not view as offensive. The worst part is, they don’t understand why they are offensive to us. I/We don’t feel safe in this space.” I am not making this up at all (maybe now you understand such low levels of retention for students of color, compared to the rest), this is something that gets brushed under the rug all too fast in order to prevent the holistic picture of Carleton being painted (a picture many of students of privileged backgrounds will very likely never be aware of). Then I watch [YouTube</a> - Refuse The Silence, Kathleen](<a href=“Refuse The Silence, Kathleen - YouTube”>Refuse The Silence, Kathleen - YouTube) about, say, experiences of Women of Color at Middlebury, and I realize that it’s not just Carleton, absolutely not. But we would do very well to improve on our attitudes in elitism etc. both as a college and as a nation.</p>
<p>The important lesson to take out from the aforementioned complaint is that “it’s a joke” is actually a very commonplace attitude at Carleton. We said that we will $h!t on our desks to give custodians meaning in their lives? It’s just a joke dude, lighten up. A comment tying an African stereotype and my behavior today? Jesus dude, IT’S JUST A JOKE. Shirt that “belittles” St. Olaf by calling it a community college? Wow, really? IT’S JUST A JOKE. But none of these really aren’t “just jokes,” and serve to highlight issues with arrogance etc. that Carleton has. Is Carleton unique at this, and is it the worst of the bunch? No, and no by far. Is there work left to be done? Yes, absolutely. Does it start from facing and admitting the problem, as opposed to blaming everything on hyper-sensitive PC people (not you Youdon’tsay, just citing a couple students I heard)? Yes, absolutely.</p>