Chance Me! Nervous Rising Senior - WA Resident, 4.0/1550 for Political Science with ECs that are All Over the Place

Demographics:

  • US domestic, WA, top 1% public HS
  • white male, upper class, Jewish
  • parents went to Northwestern & CU Boulder

Political Science Major

Academics:

  • 4.0 UW GPA, school doesn’t do weighted but I would be around a 4.3 if they did
  • no class rank either, but I’m likely to be valedictorian
  • 1550 SAT, 1490 PSAT

Coursework:

  • 8 honors classes, 11 AP classes
  • AP Music Theory (5), AP Lang (5), AP Calc AB (5), APUSH (5), AP Spanish (5); planning on taking Calc BC, Phys C, Stats, Gov, Lit, and Chinese next year
  • I’ve been taking Spanish and Chinese classes every year of high school (just out of personal interest)

Awards:

  • AP Scholar w/ Distinction, National Merit Scholarship Finalist (prediction)
  • Gold Level Community Service Award from my HS
  • Team Award for Leadership from debate team
  • leadership award from my synagogue
  • two awards for excellence in piano exams

Extracurriculars (these are pretty discombobulated but it’s bc I genuinely am very interested in the world and opportunities around me):

  • Co-President of Debate Team
  • Legislative Director of a state-wide high school political org
  • student teacher (volunteering for 300+ hrs) at Hebrew school
  • president of two Jewish youth groups
  • Jewish summer camp counselor
  • paid intern @ Boeing
  • student council member for my state’s AIAA (aerospace professional org) region
  • participant in state-wide aerospace scholars program (with a summer program and an aerospace course at UW)
  • cross country and track & field (I hate running but I still spent a lot of time doing these sports)
  • piano (played for 11 years, doesn’t relate to my major whatsoever but I love music and do have quite a bit to show for it)

Essays/LORs:

  • Essays will be solid, 8/10 (won’t really help or hurt my case)
  • LORs will be funky–I have ones from my math teacher (10/10 because I’m on the leadership of the school math club & I’ve known her throughout all of high school), english teacher (6/10 because we have a sarcastic, funny relationship and he has given me a lot of advice but I made a girl cry in his class in front of everyone on the last day of school), and rabbi (10/10 he has privately mentored me this past year except I am not 100% sure he is going to write a LOR for me because he is so busy)

Schools:

  • I love all the schools I’m applying to and have researched each one heavily, so here goes…
  • LIKELY: American University, George Washington, UPitt
  • TARGET: UW-Madison (EA), Boston University, Emory, UCSD, UCI
  • REACH: NYU, Northwestern (should I ED?), Cornell, Columbia, Yale, UCLA, MIT, UChicago, UPenn, Pomona College, Princeton

Which schools could I reasonably get into (I know some of my targets are more like reaches)? Where should I ED? Should I alter my applications based on any given factors (I know I have experience in aerospace, but I am more passionate about going into law school and political science overall)?

Thank you so much for your help–I really appreciate it.

You can get into any school in the country.

ECs need tenure and impact, preferably quantifiable. You spent 300 hrs teach Sunday school. That’s quantifiable. Piano 11 years. How many years track etc. you are fine with your ECs. What did you do at Boeing ? Impressive for a hs’er.

So - your list -

AU in theory is a yes but they know a kid with your stats will go higher ranked. So it’s not a guarantee. You need to show them love, love and love. That means - do info sessions, open their emails etc. if you visit even better. ED is the ultimate demonstration of interest.

Same with GW. By the way, go visit - other than both have a DC address, they are quite different.

Pitt is a safety. Apply on the earlier side. All three have merit possibilities but especially the first two.

UW is a likely. BU - same as GW - a student got into MIT but not there so express interest…it’s very similar to GW.

Emory a reach but possible. The UCs I’m not sure. They won’t see your test score. Why Irvine ? It’s less college-y (to me anyway).

Your reaches - again you never know. Should you ED Northwestern ? Yea if it’s your top choice and if your parents are willing to spend $400k or close. If not, no.

You are high worth but have your parents budgeted ?

Alabama has a sizable Jewish population and the NMF money is insane. Check out Bloom Hillel.

Others have great NMF money but you’d need to look into Jewish life. Maine, Tulsa, UTD, and more.

Btw if you’re going to law school, that’s more years of expense and where you go will matter less.

This year they are from 174 schools including Cal State LA, Northridge, Long Beach, Ole Miss, Iowas, Kansas, Fairleigh Dickinson represented at Harvard Law (thx @DramaMama2021 )etc.

You are great for law school because you will likely crush the LSAT so make sure you really like this set of schools and don’t go just for law school. That will happen based on gpa, test score, work of a gap year etc.

Lots of great Poli sci schools out there and certainly many are on your list. You’re not a definite ‘no’ for any although I’m curious how Pomona made the list vs a William and Mary type (larger) based on your schools although I realize Pomona has the consortium.

Pitt, btw, may be a safety but very strong in the area. And strong Jewish life.

Best of luck.

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Are we safe to assume you won’t need or be eligible for financial aid?

I ask this because with the exception of Emory a few UCs and Chicago you appear to be leaning towards “name brand” northeast schools that you have already “heavily” researched. Consequently, if we can take financial need off the table we can take off the table large state schools with lesser academic reputations but higher merit money and focus on non financial fit.

Please clarify before we go down a rabbit hole?

UT Austin has a large Jewish population, Jewish sororities and fraternities, is located in Austin/walkable to the state capitol, has a T10 law school, will strongly consider your NM status.
I would add UT to your list.

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In case your research hasn’t covered it, you might look at the Common Data Sets for the schools in which you are interested: Section C7 tells you how each school weighs different academic and non-academic admissions factors, and Sections C9-C11 provide objective criteria for recently matriculating students at the school (which can allow you to compare your objective stats with those entering students).

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Also, you might take a look at College of Charleston: you should get into the honors college, and qualify for good merit money (I don’t know how important that might be for your parents). I know someone who graduated from there a couple of years ago, then went to UMich law school.

I think that Charleston has a good Jewish community – one of my daughters friends went to CoC in part for that reason – but I defer to @tsbna44, whose daughter is at (or recently graduated from) CoC.

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Couple thoughts.

–As @tsbna44 says, Emory is likely a Reach - I know anecdotally they were highly rejective of a lot of great students from the Seattle area this year. Else I think your categorization is on, also noting that you want to go out of your way to show interest in any of these.

–It’s awesome that you like all the schools on your list, but I do think we’re all struggling to see patterns here, so I would listen to ideas of looking at other options. (I am a little surprised not to see Brandeis on this list - not just the Jewish connection, but also, the Jewish connection - and if you’re excited about Pomona College, there are a half-dozen similarly-sized options in both urban and less-urban areas on the east coast).

–I think we’d all say that if the finances work and you’ll be excited by the result, Northwestern is a good ED target. Pomona College and Emory are probably as well. The others are really just tossing your name in a hat.

–Maybe most importantly - that second LOR looks like a red flag. If you aren’t as confident as you possibly could be on a LOR, I’d really be trying to figure out if you can find a replacement. The Rabbi one isn’t going to be seen by many schools and isn’t going to be given virtually any weight, so it doesn’t make up for it.

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@tsbna44 You may want to edit your post. From your previous posts, I know you are likely talking about Harvard Law students’ undergrad schools. But someone not as familiar with your posts will be confused by that statement. :slight_smile:

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For context assuming it was Harvard law referenced the class size is 560 from 174 schools. In reality that means many of the tippy top schools are represented by double digit numbers of students.

So yes you can get into Harvard Law from lesser reputation schools but you have to be at the very very top of those schools while at elites you can be a strong performer.

In addition career opportunities fall off pretty dramatically at lesser rated schools for those that change their mind on advanced degrees or fall short of gaining admission while bottom quartile kids at elites still tend to have numerous opportunities and strong outcomes.

By example the number 100 kid from “no name” is likely limited while the 100 kid from Harvard will likely have I banking and Management Consulting offers.

Folks whose kids haven’t attended elite schools tend to underestimate the advantages having not experienced them first hand.

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Besides identifying as Jewish and your ECs I may have missed your desire for a school with a significant Jewish presence. Does this matter to you?

I noted that Alabama was mentioned if it was a priority. If so I wanted to offer context versus some of the schools you had researched and expressed an interest in such ad Cornell, American and Emory.

So yes, Bama has a fair number of Jewish kids but at 3% it is at the very low end of the schools you have expressed interest in relative to a Cornell, American or Emory who are at or near 20%. So if not in need of merit not sure of the fit.

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Cost constraints? Remember that law school is expensive.

American University prioritizes level of applicant’s interest; it does not like being used as a “safety” or “backup” behind more selective colleges. If it is your top choice and is affordable to you, applying ED there may be a good option.

No Washington public universities are on your list?

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If you end up being full pay at the undergrad schools you are considering, you’re looking at probably $400k. Law school (where is it much harder to get scholarship unless you are willing to go to a school several tiers below where you could be accepted) is likely to be $250k (not including any living expenses, including rent/food, so with that, possibly also getting towards $400k). Can your parents fund that? If not, I would highly consider trying to get as much of a discount on your undergraduate tuition as possible and save any potential funding your parents are willing to contribute for law school, where it is much more important to go to o highly ranked school.

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Honestly, I probably won’t be eligible for financial aid, so I’ll be looking for lots of merit scholarship money if possible. And sorry about the reach schools I put on the list–I added some random Ivy Leagues and similar name-brand schools I haven’t looked into yet because I was curious about my chances.

Have you considered Oxford PPE? Your 5s in APs plus high SAT score would help, and they don’t care about ECs. Also it’s a lot cheaper than top US schools, not least because it only takes three years.

But you’ll need to start preparing this summer (looking at the reading list, preparing for the TSA test, making sure you have a UK-style reference etc).

I feel like Judaism is pretty important to me, because I want to have a people I can call my own wherever I go–because of this, I don’t know if I’d be too interested in Alabama, even though it has a Hillel, because I’d be far in the minority there.

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Even though stats-wise it’s a “likely” school, I agree that demonstrated interest is really important at AU. I’ve been doing my best to show my interest in their school (emailing my regional admissions counselor, talking to student representatives, meeting with an admissions officer at the school of public affairs over zoom, social media + email lists, virtual events, and going to visit next month) because it really is one of the schools I like best, especially with the amount of merit money they can offer.

I’ll probably apply to UW as a backup for an in-state school, since I’d get a lot of credit to possibly graduate early and it wouldn’t cost much compared to most of the other schools on my list, but overall I don’t really think I’d be happy at UW itself. Still, I have to consider my financial options when it comes to law school because I’ll be paying for most of my tuition, so I am still considering UW overall.

I actually spent quit a bit of time going back and forth over Oxford PPE, but I don’t think it would give me very many opportunities to attend law school in the US. Is this true, or would Oxford PPE help me in pursuing a career in law back in the US?

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Going abroad is a terrible idea for pre-med but is not a negative for law school. What is a bad idea is trying to do law as an undergrad in the UK unless you have the right to stay and work there as a lawyer. PPE would be a perfectly fine qualification if you intend to come back to the US for law school.

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Let’s step back. I did not suggest Alabama. I’ll get to that later.

I assumed based on your initial comment *" white male, upper class, Jewish" and asking to ED at Northwestern, that you are a full pay student.

This was my two kids but the difference is I self imposed a budget ($50K).

But now you actually sound like my kids - "l be looking for lots of merit scholarship money if possible. "

This was us - and we built a selection set around this. We had schools that would 100% make cost (Bama, Arizona, UF, FSU, Miami Ohio, Purdue for my engineer etc.) and you needed ones that were assured entry.

Schools that would likely but not definitely make cost - U of SC, Charleston (for my daughter), Indiana, U Denver, etc. and were assured entry.

Then reaches admissions and / or financially - meaning these schools were unlikely to get to $$ but they were possible - schools like Vanderbilt, Emory, Rice, UNC, Pitt (financially a reach), Maryland, CU Boulder (also financially a reach), William & Mary, Washington & Lee, American, WUSTL for my son, etc.

In your case - you 100% know the three UCs are not going to give you money plus Northwestern, Cornell, Columbia, Yale, MIT, Penn, Pomona and Princeton. So if you “need” merit, then those don’t work.

But I did “assumed” since you are upper class and suggested you ED to Northwestern that money wasn’t an issue.

I noted you can potentially get into any school in America because you are frankly, amazing (congrats), But I also asked, just in case - while you are upper class, do you parents have a budget?

There are different schools of thought on CC and some will say - we should look at your list and keep money out of it. But often times, it doesn’t matter someone’s income or wealth - their parents have concern at spending $350K+ and that’s why I asked the question. It’s not so easy for everyone, even the wealthy, to stroke that large check twice a year.

And when you bring up merit - that tells me that perhaps this is the case. And if it is, then you need to redo your reach list - to add top schools that have the possibility of merit vs. schools that don’t. And even if you wanted to still apply to NU but truly need a lower cost (there would be no reason to apply) - it certainly wouldn’t be wise to ED.

As for Alabama - again, reading so much about your Jewish past, right or wrong, I assumed having a Jewish life was important to you. My comment was - of course - taken out of context.

What I said was - because you are NMF - “Alabama has a sizable Jewish population and the NMF money is insane. Check out Bloom Hillel. Others have great NMF money but you’d need to look into Jewish life. Maine, Tulsa, UTD, and more.”

Note - even though you said upper class which most would likely take to mean - any school works - I offered up “some” of the schools that reward (i.e. free or close to) for NMF. There’s more schools I listed and I noted to study Jewish life at the others that I’m not aware about. I don’t know if Tulsa or Maine or UTD have big Jewish life - but I know schools like them and others give big $$ for NMF. I do know about Bama because my son went (so he could have his own dorm room and because the campus is stunning) and I know they have 1,000+ Jewish kids and a strong Hillel I listed it (along with others). In other words, you may be upper class and you don’t need to take advantage of NMF - but it’s the golden ticket if you want it. So I was simply pointing it out. There are other schools too that reward NMF in addition to those I listed. Given your accomplishment, it would be silly to at least not look into taking advantage for a “half second” so you know your options.

Since another continually decides to disparage the school, let me note - you have UC Irvine on your list and you’d find far less Jewish life there and a history (although old) of being unfriendly to Jews which is likely why their Jewish student population is estimated at only 500 for approximately 30,000 students. So if you’re going to look at stats, please look at them for all on your list. btw - other “surprisingly” large Jewish populations would be U Kansas for a “smaller” public, William & Mary, and not inexpensive but close to you - U Oregon. But since you’re not looking at UW, I assume you’re not looking in the NW so Oregon would be out. Do note - many publics which might seem “beneath your stats” have top level Honors programs - KU amongst them with ASU Barrett seen as arguably one of the top in the country. And many others.

Finally - again, I wish that my words were not taken out of context. Yes, kids from many schools go to Harvard and other top flight law schools. 174 at Harvard is a HUGE # no matter how someone wants to disparage it. The biggest determinant in talking to a professor about law school opportunities at top schools is the LSAT. Guess what - you crushed it on the SAT - and if you decide that law school is for you down the road, you’re going to crush it on the LSAT. And with your record you’re going to be a top student wherever you go - and likely get into a great school whether you do undergrad at Western Washington, or Wellesley (or Harvard).

Do more attend elite law schools from elite undergrad schools? I’m sure they do - but that’s because those kids were able to get into elite schools to begin with as can you, regardless of where you actually decide to matriculate. The “average” student at Harvard will be greater academically than the average at U Wash, Wisconsin, Alabama, Nebraska - what have you. But guess what, on all those state flagship campuses will be kids who chose the school they did yet turned down Ivy, Northwestern, Duke, etc. And those same kids if they apply to law school will get into top flight law schools (as likely will you).

Please understand my initial message for what it said - and not for incorrect interpretations of my words by another.

I’m glad i brought up “possible merit” because in your case it might matter. That’s a chat to have with your folks to determine - because with your stats they can spend $80K or $380K over four years - and yes you can have Jewish life at all price points. And you can also have elite - yet not spend near $400K…just not at many of the elite schools on your list.

Thanks and best of luck. You have a bright future ahead of you no matter where you attend - and that’s because of you moreso than your school that you attend.

If you’re looking for for merit money, much less lots of it, you’d probably want to eliminate all of your reaches, as they generally offer $0 in merit. The UCs generally offer no merit, or very, very little for out-of-state students ($1-2k/year…and when the cost of attendance is approaching $70k, that’s not a big difference).

For clarity, are you talking about trying to save money from your undergrad for law school expenses, or are you saying something else?

Depending on how much merit you’re looking for, these are some additional/alternative schools that you may want to consider. Most of them (apart from Binghamton, Brandeis, and Tulane) are in or very near their state capitals. I’ve listed the percentage and number of Jewish students, per Hillel’s website, so you can determine relative levels of comfort with respect to the number of Jewish students on each campus.

  • Binghamton (NY): About 14k undergrads, 25.9% Jewish (3700 students)
  • Brandeis (MA): About 3600 undergrads, 36.3% Jewish (1300 students)
  • College of New Jersey: About 7k undergrads, 5.1% Jewish (350 students)
  • Michigan State: About 39k undergrads, 9.1% Jewish (3500 students)
  • Trinity (CT): About 2200 undergrads, 7.7% Jewish (170 students); few students receive merit aid, but the average size of the packages is huge
  • Tulane (LA): About 8700 undergrads, 41.3% Jewish (3200 students)
  • Union (NY): About 2100 undergrads, 12.1% Jewish (250 students)
  • U. of Denver (CO): About 5900 undergrads, 7.8% Jewish (450 students)
  • U. of Hartford (CT): About 4k undergrads, 14.7% Jewish (600 students)
  • U. of Minnesota - Twin Cities: About 36k undergrads, 4.6% Jewish (1400 students)
  • U. of Richmond (VA): About 3200 undergrads, 7.6% Jewish (240 students)
  • U. of Vermont: About 12k undergrads, 22.6% Jewish (2500 students)
  • Virginia Commonwealth: About 21k undergrads, 4.4% Jewish (1000 students)

Edited to fix Michigan State’s numbers. Thanks @tsbna44!

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