Chance me?

Hippehoppe · January 17, 2014, 4:06pm

I'm a senior who applied EA and was deferred. I'm applying regular to some other selective schools and I've already gotten into one that I like (Umich), but Chicago is my top choice by far - I'd choose it above anything.

But I'm really worried about my application, especially after first semester grades. Our school semesters just ended today (this friday, 1/17/14), unlike most schools which I believe send RD colleges first semester grades before Christmas. I ended solidly, but it wasn't superb (mostly because I missed a ton of school - for combination of a little illness and a lot of debate friday-saturday-sunday-monday tournaments - and a lot of late work ended up not being accepted... kind of a bummer). But, stats anyway:

Have either a 2290 or 2260 on SAT, don't remember (unfortunately, 800 writing, 800 reading, then math is the ugly duckling, so I'm a little less competitive on the 1600 scale. Still, sent them the full SAT. Also took 3 SATIIs... scores were somewhere between 760 and 790 on them, don't entirely remember - was US, World, and Lit, iirc).

Have a 33 ACT. Don't remember individual scores.

My weighted GPA is hovering at around a 4.2 on a 4.0 scale - mostly As, a couple of B+s over the years (nothing below that... well, idk, I may have gotten a C in gym freshman year or something. I've never paid much attention to my grades until now). There's no real "trend" in either direction - I suppose slightly downward because it maxed out at like a 4.4 my sophomore year, but it's always been somewhere between a 4.1 and a 4.4. My grades are probably considerably lower unweighted, though - I take more than the maximum amount of permitted AP courses (my school only permits 3 APs per year - I got special permission to take a fourth this year), so my GPA is a little inflated.

This leads me into my big worry - first semester senior year my grades were solid, but not superb. Idk if Chicago was really interested in seeing sky-high grades after my deferral (they aren't bad, they are just sort of in-line with what I've been getting, only a little lower and a little more inflated by APs). Like, I'll probably end the semester with two B+s and maybe one or two A-s (I think just one A-... everything else is A or A+). Which is, given weights assigned to AP/honors, like a 4.3 or something, but probably not so competitive unweighted. I'm probably overreacting, but the semester ended today, and I wish it had ended on a higher note just so I'd feel a little more secure (not that the difference between a 4.3 and a 4.7 is too considerable or that I'd have made my way into Chicago had I just cut debate-research-time and actually studied, but I just have a meh feeling about my GPA... and I'm really nervous about applications because I really love Uchicago).

BUT, that's not all that matters, and I think I have some other strengths (I've tried to make that evident when talking to chicago reps... like, I contacted my regional rep after my deferral and told her that I expected my grades to be strong, but I thought I had better strengths that were more accurate indicators of my potential).

So, first off, I think I have really good recommendations. One from an English teacher at my high school (I've had him two years - junior and senior. He asked me if he could write my rec, and actually wrote to my parents to say I was the best student/writer he's ever had, which felt pretty good because he's one of my schools older teachers. Also a fairly smart guy), another from my debate coach (also my speech teacher junior year. Again, I think this is a solid rec - I'm on my school's "A team" in policy debate, and this teacher loves my partner and I, wrote us great recs, etc. We're a smaller debate school and he oftentimes raves - to our faces and others - about how we're the best kids he's ever taught, etc.). Finally, I have one from a professor at a state university (knew him via a summer debate program - he offered to write a rec for me, too, because I was one of the top researchers at that program. I think this is a solid rec, too).

Extracurriculars:
- Model United Nations Captain (Model UN is kind of a joke social club at my school, but idk how it's perceived by admissions boards. still, I'm a leader and I've been commended at conferences before).

<ul>
<li>Founder of the Student Libertarian Society (funny story - since the 2000 elections, my school has had liberal and conservative student political organizations put on public debates in the fall. I was a member of both organizations at the same time for a while before a friend and I went and registered a Libertarian organization with the administration, which we later got recognized as a chapter of the Young Americans for Liberty national organization. Again, low-commitment activity - I've won first speaker 3 of the 3 debates we've had with the other clubs).</li>
<li>Policy debate captain - this is the big 'un, I think. I have recs from two people who know me through debate and I'm the co-captain with my partner, both of us on the A team. I've twice attended a 7-week summer debate institute at a major American university, and I've been pretty successful the last few years in debate. But this year our team has been incredibly successful (we got our first "bid" - qualification - to a really prestigious national tournament called the ToC that my high school has received in the last 15 years). We've gotten to octafinals around 5 times at major national tournaments, and we beat the top-ranked team at one such octafinalist round. This is all the cooler because I'm from a small debate program (it's basically my partner and I that are the engines of the program... we have to compete with some schools that have 90ish students churning out files full of research, and the two of us - partner and I- have basically been able to match top schools in the country in terms of output). Like Model UN, this is a four-year commitment, but it's been a huge commitment. It's lowered my grades (missing so much school... like, every weekend in the Fall), but I've gotten speaker awards, recs, and essays about extracurriculars because of it, so I think it'll help my app at least a little.</li>
<li>A few other low-commitment activities. Got some award from Kenyon College for "outstanding contribution to the intellectual community" (it was based off of really arbitrary factors - the teachers at my school nominated me for it. I'm statistically weaker than most of the "highly competitive" kids at my school in terms of GPA, though). Member of national honors society. School requires so and so many hours of community service during sophomore year, etc.</li>
</ul>

Essays... I thought they were decent. I wrote my WhyChicago one about how much I love the liberal arts and being around smart people (this is paraphrasing, but it was basically about Chicago's core curriculum - I mentioned that I want to go into economics and how strong Chicago's economics department is, but it wasn't really the focus of my essay - and the university's culture). My commonapp essay was about how much I love Socrates and how much Socratic philosophy has influenced my life. My Uchicago specific one addressed the history topic (history is what they're not telling us or w/e) - I wrote about how tenure is bad and encourages university departments to be conformist (it was kind of me bastardizing microeconomics - I'm not an expert, so it was a little clumsy - to show that tenure incentivizes universities to only hire people who are ideologically "safe" and won't hire people who might be innovative... I ended talking about how Uchicago was the exception to the rule though, lol). I had them proofread for grammar, but that was it (people said they were good, but I didn't really get any other feedback).

So... strengths and weaknesses above, I guess. I realize in truth that I'm probably a decently strong applicant, but there are thousands of kids out there who are incredibly strong applicants who won't get in, and I'm just incredibly nervous because of the deferral+my first semester grades aren't spectacular (this isn't to say I expected to get in before I was deferred... I was nervous in early December too, lol. But I'm a more worried now because I'll get my final decision in a few months). I wrote a letter to my regional rep after the deferral and was pretty emphatic about how much I love Uchicago and that it's my first choice bar none (I didn't mention this, but I'd pick it in a heartbeat above any other place I applied. I applied to Umich, Columbia, Harvard, etc... I loved them all - got into mich, the harvard interviewer said he'd "push for me", etc.-, but none as much as Chicago. I'd rank it first before anything else, bar none). I mentioned my success in policy debate this year (a lot of high places at national tournaments) and how this is a big accomplishment considering the resources at my school - I said that I expected to have strong grades (and I do... but I think they might be lower tier for a Chicago applicant?), but that I thought my debate accomplishments should be considered, because I've put all of my energy into doing research, practice, etc. for the last four years.

Oh, should mention that I don't have a legacy or any other connection to the university. I've interviewed, visited (neither of these make a big/any difference, as far as I can tell), and written to the regional rep, but that's it. No wealthy grandfathers with libraries named after them, lol.

Anyway, I'm probably overly worried, especially since the semester just ended. I've gotten into a couple colleges I love (namely umich), so I'm not hysteric over my transcripts atm, but I'm just nervous about Chicago because it's been my dream school since, like, 7th grade. chancemepls (I'm not missing anything important in data, am I?), would you kindly?

Thanks so much!

EDIT: I should say, in my letter to my regional rep I expressed an interest in debating at Uchicago (because I was talking about my debate career). I've spoken to the director of their debate program, and I sort of know/have met the captain of their team (at that summer debate institute, I was pretty productive in terms of evidence output, which is why I got that professor to write me a rec. But a few of the debaters there had heard of me because of that). I had email convos with both of them about debating at uchicago, but mostly just for me to ask questions about the program. I don't know either of them incredibly well and I'm not sure if chicago even has a policy of recruitment (at least in debate), so I feel like it'd be inappropriate for me to ask them to "push" for me with admissions (like... idk, that just seems disingenuous, given that I'm not on really familiar terms with them). Still, I don't know if expressing an interest in a particular activity at Uchicago (regardless of "recruitment") could positively influence my application?

kaukauna · January 17, 2014, 4:40pm

Hippehoppe: You have a very interesting resume and story and I enjoyed reading your post. Debate is big at UChicago, and I think you’d find a lot of strong outlets. More important perhaps from an admissions standpoint is that you will be an attractive candidate because of your obvious talent with formal debate.

The things that stuck out to me as worrisome are the following.

You had excellent verbal and writing SAT scores, not as great in math. But you indicated economics as your main interest. Economics is math heavy at UChicago so it might worry some admissions counselor that you would struggle if you are set on economics. Not saying you would, just saying it might appear that way. Maybe if you had put something like pre-law it would have fit better for the admissions person.
I wish you had finished strong during your first semester senior year. To me that’s a tangible indication of your seriousness and dedication to getting admitted. Maybe an admissions counselor would see it differently, and for your sake I he/she does, but from what I read it is an indicator to the admissions people. Maybe if you have any follow up communications you can address this without making excuses.

In any event, you are clearly a talented young person, and you’re going to achieve great things in the coming years. Best of luck as you finish up your applications.

Hippehoppe · January 17, 2014, 5:23pm

Thanks for the reply!

<ol>
<li>Yeah, there’s a career category response that one must fill out in the common application. They’re generally oriented towards more practical careers (so, like… premed, pre-engineering, pre-law, etc.). I put pre-law as my top choice (and I’m considering a career in law… my other two choices were, like, business and entrepreneurship or something, but I’m less interested in those), but I put economics as my first choice major (but with philosophy and history as my second and third choices). I think my ACT math was a little stronger, but can’t remember (like… mid-30s, maybe?). I’m in BC calc and stats (I took a special math course last year that allowed me to skip ahead 2 years from where I was sitting as a sophomore), if that might help at all (though these are the two courses in which I may have B+s/A-s). But yeah, math’s not my strong-suit in general, and it’s made me question my career choice a little (I also really love philosophy) - I think they asked how determined the applicant is to pursue a given career on 1-5, and I put around 3.</li>
<li>Yeah… Idk, do you think this really /hurts/ my chances at Chicago? I had heard that, unless grades change astoundingly (as in, I totally bombed first semester or I went from a 3.5 to a 4.6), it doesn’t have a huge indicator on the admissions process, but i wasn’t sure if this is the case at Chicago, especially for deferred applicants. Like, my GPA/grades are similar to what I have been getting in previous years. Do you think they’re particularly weak for a Chicago applicant (I mean… Chicago turns down kids with 4.4s and 2400s, so I know I’m not going to shine based off grades), or are they in a passable range?</li>
</ol>

I’ve had a couple of interviews (with other colleges) where the interviewer requested a copy of my transcript for review. They’d generally ask me what I felt about my grades and if I felt my grades/test scores accurately represented my intelligence, and I’d generally respond that I don’t feel that grades or test scores are really an accurate measure of intelligence at all (and that I don’t think intelligence can or should be ‘accurately’ measured). Only in one interview (Harvard) did the interviewer comment on my grades, and he said that they looked strong/in the range of an applicant, and that grades weren’t the most important consideration in the process (but he also went to Harvard 30 years ago and this was after he had asked me about other areas of my application, so idk how more competitive admissions process influence the way people look at grades, or if it’ll be a first indicator that may ‘disqualify’ me before the rest of my app is considered).

Do you think I’ve really damned my chances with the Bs (or the SAT 690s, for that matter)? I know I’m not “top tier” statistically, but am I near the bottom of the barrel of their applicant pool, in the range, etc.?

If it helps, there’s a professor at my high school who is an alumnus (call him TeacherA). He teaches economics (I have a different economics teacher - TeacherB-, but the two of them are good friends, I’m the top student in my economics class of around 80 kids, TeacherB has mentioned me to TeacherA, I’ve had a few discussions with TeacherA about monetarism and other topics, TeacherA knew I was interested in Uchicago, had heard me give public speeches for the libertarians, etc.), and apparently was impressed when listening/talking to me. When he heard I got deferred, he offered to vouch for me and recommend me (well, TeacherB said he’d have him do it, since TeacherA keeps in touch with the admissions department or something along those lines), but, since I hadn’t spoken with TeacherA before that time, I said I’d rather not have him “pull strings”, because it seemed dishonest. But I guess TeacherA took and interest, so I just said that I’d rather meet with him a few times before he does anything so he can make an honest assessment. I’m holding out for that, hoping his word could play a role (he said he was very impressed when he heard me making speeches - I gave one to my school in October that was a 3-minute explanation of the Austrian theory of the business cycle, and I had a debate with my econ teacher about sterilized foreign exchange interventions -, so I think I made a good impression).

Do you know if the word of an alumn could have serious influence on an application (he’ll be making an honest assessment, and he apparently has some credibility or something - I’m a little hazy on what his connection to the University is… some grad school program)? I’d rather that I get in based on my merit alone, so I was really hesitant about this, but the guy has taken an interest of his own accord, I guess.

artloversplus · January 17, 2014, 6:01pm

IMHO, the word of an alumni would have some influence on the application if he had been your teacher. But for some third party recommendations, it will not make that much difference.
The weak math part of your SAT, like the other comment, really hampers your chances. Economics in Chicago is very math oriented, if you want to get in, do not indicate economics as your preferred major, try to get in first and switch majors, it is not hard. I know a girl who got in as a bio major and successfully switched to economics and she has graduated two years ago.

Hippehoppe · January 17, 2014, 6:07pm

That’s too bad :/

I already did indicate that as my preferred major when I applied, so I can’t really change it now. I guess I should’ve put philosophy first, which was really one of my top choices anyway (and is probably equally my favorite study alongside economics, tbh). Is this a massive reach school, then?

artloversplus · January 17, 2014, 6:35pm

Well, you can write to your regional adcom and indicate you wish to change. It will not hurt, the worst is that you get rejected.

Hippehoppe · January 17, 2014, 6:37pm

It seems strange that I’d write to her and say “btw, I want to do philosophy now. Will that help my chances?” It seems like it’d look bad (and it’d be pretty clear what I’m doing).

artloversplus · January 17, 2014, 6:48pm

Yes, it does look bad. But in college, you are allow to switch majors, so I assume you can do it during application. If you can give some reasoning, perhaps just be honest, saying your math is not strong, so you will perform better in X major.

And Writing in SAT is not accounted for in UofC admission consideration, so you only got less than 500 in MATH? That is too lop sided score make you a very weak candidate. How about ACT?

Hippehoppe · January 17, 2014, 6:57pm

I got a 690 in math. Er… you may have meant to type less than 700. I got 800s in both the other categories.

I heard that Chicago only requires the 1600 scale, but they’ll accept and consider writing scores if sent? My composite ACT is 33, math is 32. According to this ([Convert</a> ACT to SAT - How to Convert SAT Scores to ACT Scores](<a href=“http://collegeapps.about.com/od/standardizedtests/a/convertSAT2ACT.htm]Convert”>Convert ACT to SAT: A 2017 Table for Score Conversion)), that’s the equivalent of 755ish (not sure if their conversion’s a bit off)?

I sent in both my ACT and SAT scores. I think I did, on a 2400 scale, considerably stronger in SAT (2290) than ACT (33), but math on my SAT was pretty weak (is 32 on ACT math so weak? Not sure what metric that site is using to compare ACT and SATs (how accurate their standards of deviation are…this sounds like BS, tbh. I know tons of kisd who have mid-upper 30s on ACT math but have SAT superscores in the 1900-2100 range. This is especially weird b/c I think ACT math is supposed to be harder, or at least more advanced math - it has some trig, right? SATs just geometry, which I can’t do b/c I fail arithmetic or something, lol).

If a 32 math is alright, hopefully Chicago will look at it holistically and consider that math alongside the double-800s? Or am I being too optimistic?

artloversplus · January 17, 2014, 7:00pm

Does your grade also show that you are weak in math? I mean did you take “easy way out” and get an A in regular algebra whereas AP Calc BC is offered and you did not take? If so, you really cannot get in the economics program. I strongly suggest you should switch majors if you wish to get in.

Hippehoppe · January 17, 2014, 7:04pm

No, I don’t think that’s the case. I’m taking Calc BC this year - I started freshman year from a weak math program in grade school, so I took Honors Algebra I—> sophomore Honors Geometry. But Junior year I was admitted to an upper level math program that allowed me to skip Alg II Trig, Precalc, and AB, so I’m in BC calc now.

Albeit, BC is one of the classes that I /may/ receive a B+ in first semester (I think it’ll be an A or A-, but I can’t be sure), and the same is the case of stats (which really ticks me off, because it’s not for my poor performance in stats, it’s just because of missing school). But I’m in AP Calc and AP stats (there’s only one math program offered beyond BC at my school, and it’s multivariable calculus. I think 4 kids are in that - none of whom are applying to Chicago this year, thank God, lol -, but many of them are sophomores or juniors b/c they’ve come from advanced middle schools. In general, BC calc is the top course offered to seniors at my high school).

I’m taking pretty challenging math courses and skipped 3 years of math.

artloversplus · January 17, 2014, 7:29pm

They do not mix ACT and SAT scores. So, if you are good in ACT math that does not translate to SAT. And if you follow the U admission counselor’s thread, the U only consider the 1600 scale on SAT, you can send it writing, but it will not weight much.

All I can say is good luck in the RD round, and do good on Calc BC and stat, because you will need that to open the door.

kaukauna · January 17, 2014, 8:04pm

hippehoppe: Don’t misunderstand me. Your resume is very strong. Let’s put things in perspective: even the math score is outstanding for most students. It’s just that it doesn’t quite match up with UChicago economics–especially when it appears that you have such outstanding writing and critical reasoning skills.

You indicated you were deferred, which as we all know doesn’t necessarily mean that you are not as strong as many who got accepted, it just means there was a better perceived “fit” or whatever for other candidates, or that some flag was raised for a reviewer.

What I was trying to do was to sort through your post to find those areas that I think many have been a cause or causes for deferral. You think about what I and others have said and if what we have said makes sense, then get together with someone you trust (parents? guidance counselor?) and figure out if there’s a way to maybe address the possible cause of the deferral. I gave you two suggestions. I may or may not be right. But it seemed to make sense to me.

I wish you the best of luck as you go forward.

Hippehoppe · January 17, 2014, 9:26pm

aiskaukauna: Yeah, that makes sense. I appreciate that. I think at this point it’s too late for me to change any of my stats (first semester’s ended and I’m not about to take the SAT again… I don’t even think scheduling that would be possible), but I’ll see what else can be done in terms of appealing admissions. I’m applying to quite a few colleges, and I’ve gotten into a few that I already know and love, but Chicago’s my top choice, so I just wanted to get an estimation on how likely my admission would be. I think your points are probably correct (that less than perfect grades + math SAT weakness are probably the two major flaws in my application) - I just wanted to know if those were likely to kill my app, or if I could make up with it (I’m still not sure what the general consensus is… like, these are causes for deferral, but is my application, on the whole, still reasonably strong to be considered at Chicago? Or is this a very unrealistic reach choice, given the relatively ‘low’ math scores? I guess I’m also wondering if I look like a competitive candidate in general, disregarding the conflict between intended major and current scores… my GPA’s not perfect and neither are my SAT/ACT, but do I stand any significant chance in the selection process for a highly selective university like this?).

@artloversplus (and kaukana): But, if I’ve sent in both my SAT and ACT, it seems like they’d take both into consideration, no (like, they try to take everything you send in into consideration, correct?)? Obviously there’s not an objective process of superscoring them (so, you’re right, they don’t “mix SAT and ACT scores”), but is a 32 ACT math reasonably competitive at Chicago (the average composite ACT for a Uchicago student is 32 - mine’s a 33, but my math section is a 32). I just don’t know how competitive that score is compared to an SAT score (because I didn’t pay much attention to the ACT - I only took it once), so that’s why I looked at the conversion tables (just so I could gauge what a 32 looks like in terms I could understand). I mean, I realize these aren’t really stellar scores and I’m not going to get in based off of SAT/ACT, but is this enough for me to be a reasonable candidate for admission, or am I reaching pretty high?

kaukauna · January 17, 2014, 11:14pm

Hippehoppe: Based on what I can see of your quals, you are a very competitive candidate. Don’t beat yourself up. You are a great candidate. Sometimes who really knows why one person gets in, one gets deferred and so on.

You’re a tremendous student, and I know you’re going to be successful in college.

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