chances for progeny

Parents Forum
41

<p><em>rolls eyes</em>
Numbers, numbers, numbers...</p>

<p>Williams has a lot of money, which might explain the amount of money the administrators invest in sports.</p>

<p>While 40% is a large percentage by any means; in the context of the school, though, I do not think that sports is ever overbearing. Yes, there are a lot of athletes at Williams, but there are also many artists, musicians, debators, playwrights, budding politicians, and nearly every type of person, from the all-star jock to the geek, including every type of person contained by the social spectrum. Williams is the all-'round school, and with such, every one is never focused in only one part of their lives. At Williams, you have academics, a social life, and friends, you do not have to pick two. (I've heard people joke at MIT: academics, friends, sleep. Pick two.) Sports is only one part of one aspect in any one person's life. That would be silly. For those who want to compete in sports, the best is readily availible at Williams, and for those who don't, have everything else that Williams offers socially and academically. And Williams has a lot to offer to everyone. Non-athletes are never the minority; non-athletic events are never forgotten, lost, or voiceless.</p>

42

<p>"Mini... Please re-examine graph 10 on the diversity report."</p>

<p>I DID. 49% of "WHITE" students are involved in varsity athletics (that's what I wrote). (Chart #23 - "Sports and Drinking"). This does not include JV, club sports, or intramurals. So as I wrote, the actual percentage involvement of white students is around 60%. But it is higher for white males. </p>

<p>I think the data provides an accurate picture of the Williams student body. 60% of white students involved in athletics, higher among males. 73% received no need-based grants.</p>

<p>But, frankly, I don't perceive why YOU should think this is a problem. You like it, don't you? It IS a great school.</p>

43

<p>
[quote]
After all, what would you say if I claimed that an athlete could not fit into the Swarthmore culture or a heterosexual could not fit into the Smith culture?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I don't know enough about Smith to comment. However, a nationally-ranked recruited athlete should definitely consider Swarthmore's relative lack of emphasis on athletics when evaluating the school. </p>

<p>I mean, it would be downright stupid for a student planning to play varsity football or ice hockey to apply to Swarthmore. And, no athlete should consider Swarthmore with the expectation that professors will cut them any slack. It's definitely "old-school" athletics, more of a "walk-on" flavor where the student part comes before the athlete part. That's exactly the kind of definining characteristic that I think potential applicants should consider in deciding whether a particular undergrad educational "product" is right for them or not.</p>

<p>I don't know why Williams would want to downplay the institutional priority placed on athletics. To me, it's one of the main things that differentiates the school and gives it a clear identity. That's a good thing. For every kid who may not be looking for that, there's another who would find it a perfect match.</p>

44

<p>
[quote]
Williams has a lot of money, which might explain the amount of money the administrators invest in sports.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Yes. Williams has a huge endowment. Of the seven schools I listed above, it has the third highest per student endowment. Amherst is just a tick behind Williams.</p>

<p><a href="http://www.williams.edu/alumni/campaign/about/WilliamsCoolidge_financial.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.williams.edu/alumni/campaign/about/WilliamsCoolidge_financial.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>BTW, another alumni fund publication touts that 50% of the student body participates in a varsity, junior varsity, or club sport.</p>

<p><a href="http://www.williams.edu/alumni/handbook/classagent/29-30.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.williams.edu/alumni/handbook/classagent/29-30.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

45

<p>Boy, talk about a thread-jacking....</p>

<p>Any chance you folks could start a separate thread to argue about athletic participation at these LACs, so the OP could get some more targeted answers to the original questions? Thanks.</p>

46

<p>Actually, it didn't start out as a thread jacking. The original poster described a kid with great academic qualifications, a transcript strength in math/science but stronger verbal scores, an clear interest in debate related ECs, no sports, isn't ready to select a firm field of study, and has some reluctance to start commiting to specific likes/dislikes about colleges. </p>

<p>The college list (MIT, Caltech, Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Columbia, Brown, Dartmouth, UPenn, Cornell, Williams, Amherst) struck me as being all over the board, indicative of the fact that the student really hasn't started to focus on specifics of campus culture.</p>

<p>I believe that the biggest mistake our family made with our daughter's college search was a failure to look at big picture campus culture issues early enough. It worked out in the end, but in retrospect, she had some schools on her list that would have been very bad fits for her -- mistakes that could have been avoided with a bit more discussion of "campus culture". </p>

<p>So, I attempted to initiate a conversation about that issue by asking what it was, specifically, about two of the schools that attracted her son. It's a pretty basic question in the college selection process. Every school on his initial list is a great school, but they can't all be a fit for him given that they are so different. As I pointed out, it would be difficult to love both MIT and Williams or both Columbia and Dartmouth. </p>

<p>Without some sense of what would be a good fit, it would be very difficult to recommend additional schools to consider or provide much guidance.</p>

47

<p>The problems with the LACs (all of them) when it comes to computer science/engineering is that, while many of them are wonderful, the departments tend to be very small. If important members of small faculties leave, the research and other opportunities may leave too, and have to be built up again. </p>

<p>Of the LACs, Williams is generally thought to have the best math department. Lafayette and Lehigh and Bucknell all have long-standing engineering departments and, I think, comp. sci. departments as well. And then there is Harvey Mudd. But after that, I think you are likely better looking larger, like Rochester, CMU, Case. And there also some top state schools (like Michigan, and Purdue?) that have very fine programs (though it isn't something I know much about.)</p>

48

<p>I-Dad.. You are totally mistaken. Most kids end up loving whatver school they attend. Even though two schools differ on many levels, students can learn to love the different aspects of the schools.</p>

<p>For example, how does an urban kid know that he/she doesn't like a rural environment until he/she is placed in one. Student X ,who may never have dreamed of leaving Manhattan, may appreciate the rural splendor of Dartmouth after some adjustment. Conversely, they would have been equally happy to stay in Manhattan. People CAN appreciate different aspects of different environments!!!</p>

<p>Don't mean to pick on you, but I just feel like all of your ranting is generally unsubstantiated, and I hope that folks out their take your advice with a grain of salt.</p>

49

<p>Yes. Kids can, and in fact have to, accept compromises in their college selections, i.e. schools will have many, but not all, of their prefered characteristics.</p>

<p>But, generally speaking, there would ideally be some common thread running through a well-researched college list beyond the schools' placement on the USNEW ranking list.</p>

<p>A student still should be able to point to a specific characteristic that attracts him to each school: it could be size, it could be location, it could be because frats play a large role on campus, it could be any number of things. When a parent is asking for additional recommendations, it seems like an obvious starting point to ask what the kid likes about the schools already identified on the list.</p>

<p>In my daughter's case, in focusing a bit too heavily on academics, size, and location, we had failed to look at broader issues of campus culture that could have led to her attending a school with a huge frat scene, the heaviest priority on varsity athletics, and minimal diversity -- all issues that ran counter to her priority list and none of which were clearly enunciated in the college's materials. I believe that is a common mistake and one that is easily avoided if you think to ask the right questions.</p>

50

<p>There is no doubt that Williams kids are physically active. They may be football players, runners, hikers, ballroom dancers, musical theater actors, marching band marchers, weight lifters – involved in organized sports or just in it for their own enjoyment – but they get out there and do something active. The kid who tries to hibernate in the winter is likely to get hauled out by his ear for a snowball fight with his entry. Kids are encouraged by their peers to stay healthy and getting some kind of regular exercise is often a group event, e.g. the evening run, the broomball game.</p>

<p>I think it’s important to make this distinction between physically active and being a team athlete. Numerically (or whatever the word is for the actual number of people) there are more team athletes at Swarthmore than there are at Williams; however I have no argument with the statement that a culture of sports and physical activity is more pervasive at Williams. Personally, I think Williams has the right idea. The academic and social pressure is enormous and physical exertion is a wonderful stress reliever.</p>

<p>Williams has tons of money. Yes, they spend heavily on sports, but they also seriously support the arts – theater, dance, museums, music performance. One does not cancel out the other.</p>

<p>Back to the OP (If we haven’t scared him/her away with all this diversion :) ): An almost Eagle Scout usually indicates an active kid. Only the OP and his/her son could tell us if this assumption were accurate, but my guess is that “the progeny” who is articulate (debate), a strong writer (SAT score) really, really smart (his parent’s description) with a proclivity toward both math/science and social studies plus an interest in law (mock trial), economics (stock club) and an involvement in outdoorsy activities (Philmont) would be a great fit with Williams. The computer science side I’m not so sure about as I don’t know anything about this area at Williams, but I think his family’s hesitance to steer him toward in a totally tech environment is valid in his case as he is a multifaceted kid who could ultimately take off in any number of directions.</p>

51

<p>
[quote]
Numerically (or whatever the word is for the actual number of people) there are more team athletes at Swarthmore than there are at Williams

[/quote]
</p>

<p>OOPS! Meant to say there are more NON-athletes at Williams than at Swarthmore. I'm lousy at statistics of any kind and hereby will abandon any numerical comparisons in the future.</p>

52

<p>Williams is very well-rounded, and so if you are worried about limiting your son, Williams might be the place. I would also suggest you look into Columbia. With its core curriculum your son will experience history, literature, economics, cultural studies and everything that he may be interested in, and so after he finishes the core, he may be more focused. I would also suggest UChicago, but my interviewer, an active alumnus, admitted that computer science may be UChicago's only considerable "weak" department. </p>

<p>I spoke to a Cornell admissions counselor about applying to different schools within the university. He said that adcoms judge applications and consider heavily will that applicant fit in that school. So, considering your son's interest in social sciences, it might be beneficial to apply to the college of arts and science.</p>

53

<p>I apologize for contributing to the hijacking of this thread. I would like to make some general comments regarding the appeal of different schools to the OP's son, as I think we are having a similar experience. I completely understand how such different schools as Williams and MIT can be on the same kid's list for very rational reasons, especially this early in the process, because they are both on my daughter's list for now. For a multi-faceted student, in our case with strong interests in math and music (and probably 100 other things), each of the schools may meet most but not all of the students' criteria. I think as the summer and fall progress, we'll be sorting out which criteria are "must haves" and which ones she'll be willing to forego. For now we have an assortment of schools that looks odd to some folks, but my daughter can enthusiastically and explicitly justify each school's place on her list. </p>

<p>One more comment about the breakdown of varsity athletes by race --At my daughter's big suburban public high school in the South, she is friends with kids of all different racial and ethnic groups and expects to be in college as well, so I'm wondering what we're supposed to make of the percentages of each race and ethnic group that are involved in varsity athletics. Perhaps it's just something that colleges keep track of but won't make a bit of difference to the students?</p>

54

<p>Don't look at me. My kid's list includes Guilford and VMI. Really, for my money "pacifist military school" is such an unrecognized niche :)</p>

<p>Going back to the OP, my experience with Cornell is very old but way back when I was applying I was given the distinct impression that getting into the non-A&S college was slightly easier, but that the workload once admitted was generally equivalent. A lot of kids ended up applying to the other schools primarily because they didn't have the required HS course loads (foreign language and math, primarily). And by the way, "lower ivy"?? No such thing. </p>

<p>The National Merit thing has been pretty well explained. I'll just take the time to rant that my company gives very generous scholarships, but they are tied in to the National Merit Corp. Basically, only NM semi-finalists are in the running. And since the company is a large company with employees in many states, the winners always seem to come from those states with lower cutoffs -- while us Delawareans (221) and the New Jerseyites (222) are left to grumble. </p>

<p>I vote with the crowd saying don't re-do the SAT looking for a higher math score. 740 is etremely solid, particularly if the SAT II scores are good. </p>

<p>Congratulations to your S. I know this board can make you freak out, but he should be commended on having such an excellent record of grades, achievements and community service. Good luck!</p>

55

<p>And now for something entirely different. There is a very creative and unique dual degree program that is offered by Reed College for students interested in comp science or engineering. These are five year programs where the student ends up with two degrees, one form Reed and one from another school. These schools include: CalTech, Columbia, Rensselaer, and the Univ. of Washington among others. Three years are done at Reed, two years at the other school, two degrees. This model provides a very well rounded experience in the liberal arts as well as in the sciences, and combines smaller LAC experience with larger research university experience. Reed College is known for its intense academics and close contact with faculty, and it is the only LAC with its own atomic reactor for research.</p>

<p><a href="http://web.reed.edu/apply/is_dd_div.html#computer_science%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://web.reed.edu/apply/is_dd_div.html#computer_science&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

56

<p><<most kids="" end="" up="" loving="" whatver="" school="" they="" attend.="">></most></p>

<p>Uh? Then why is the national transfer rate for college students so high? Many, many kids end up hating or at least disliking whatever school they attend. If you have doubts, read the student comments at sites like <a href="http://www.studentreviews.com%5B/url%5D"&gt;www.studentreviews.com&lt;/a> -- there are plenty of disgruntled kids out there. </p>

<p>I agree with Interesteddad: it is important to think about what type of campus culture might work best for an individual student early on in the process. Not only does it help insure a happy student, it also makes narrowing choices down a whole lot easier. But, that's just my opinion. :)</p>

57

<p>As I said in another thread, there are kids who end up loving whatever school they attend. There are also kids who are not going to be happy whereever they end up going. It's just the way they are wired. I have both kinds.</p>

58

<p>I wonder if Directed Studies at Yale plus an advanced Math class might not be worth considering for OP. This would combine a LAC culture within a major research university with program flexibility.</p>