<p>Lisa,
Is your D applying early to Yale? That's one way to find out soon and then move forward. That's what we did last yr...after a good night sleep, D moved on...and we were relieved! She just called me at work while walking back to campus from a trip to the drugstore...happy where she is at. Good luck.</p>
<p>Yale is a great school. However, it should be noted that what they are known for is the graduate school and the Yale Repertory theater. Undergraduates (who have a number of wonderful theater opportunities in their own right, but no greater than that to be found at a top LAC like, for example, Williams) end up competing for time with the top profs with the grad students, who have paid for that opportunity. There is no undergraduate "program" to speak of. Needless to say, the very top students "will out" wherever they happen to be, but my impression (based on information gleaned from a former prof. in the grad program, my college classmate Steve Lawson) is that for the average student, the opportunities are no better than a couple of dozen other places. </p>
<p>(For the record - Gordon Clapp, David Straitharn, John Sayles, Maggie Renzi, Steve Lawson, and Stephen Sondheim -- among a host of others -- are all Williams grads.)</p>
<p>Yes, she is applying early to Yale. Gave up ED to Dartmouth, her second choice, where her Dad is an Alum. And thanks Mini, Williams is second choice.</p>
<p>Carolyn, I wondered.</p>
<p>I must have missed something a while ago, Carolyn-- duped in what way?</p>
<p>Kinshasa, There have been certain "posters" in the past who have turned out not to be who they claimed to be -- Mom101, AnnieIvy, Fresca --- and I have learned to be cautious in who I offer advice to. Not everyone is who they seem to be and stories that seem a little "too good to be true" should be taken with a grain of salt at times. If you want to understand more of what I'm talking about, do a search for Annieivy or Mom101 on the old archives. Just remember that we have no way of really knowing who we are talking to and while the vast majority of posters here are truthful and upfront, some people are less so for whatever reason.</p>
<p>I'm still missing something after doing the search. What Fresca said, a private clun she didn't feel invited to, is that what you're trying to tell me?</p>
<p>Carolyn, I checked the archives. Mom101 is banned.</p>
<p>But I think she reincarnated herself here at least once.</p>
<p>Lisa,
Thought I would share my point of view. Your daughter, it appears, with the little I know about her, seems in the ballpark for Yale and so I would not count her out or discourage her. However, anyone applying to a school like Yale needs to be FULLY aware of the state of elite admissions. It is NOT enough to be qualified. It is not as if you get in if you are qualified. In fact, the situation becomes a bit of a lottery ticket once you meet the qualifications and your D likely does meet the qualifications from what I can tell (though I will qualify that a bit and say that I really could not accurately evaluate her stats with so little information). But let's say she really has what you need to get in and the part you shared thus far is definitely in the ballpark. There are way way too many kids applying who have that too. Thus they can handpick a diverse class of kids and some luck comes in as to whether your profile fits a slot in the class. Last year the admit rate was 9.9% if I recall overall. Normally, the early round increases the odds of admission but at Yale last year, the admit rate was way lower in the early round than in years past. It was about 16% which is very low in an early round. I think the previous year it had been 28% in the early round (forgive me if I am slightly off as it has been a year but I am pretty close if not correct). In the early round last year, if you were just on this forum alone, you would have seen numerous kids who did not get in who had what it takes to get into Yale. Some outstanding kids on here were flat out rejected in that round. They deferred about 38% and rejected the rest. I have a D who got deferred. Eventually she was rejected in April. She knows, as do we, that it is not as if she was not "good" enough to get in but realistically the odds were such that nobody can count on getting in at a place like Yale no matter how good you look. </p>
<p>Now, the way she approached it is what I would hope for YOUR daughter. That is, she never got her heart set on Yale. It was one of her first choices but not the only school she would be happy yet. Yes, she loved it and it was a good match for what she wanted but so were other schools. She read about and understood what elite admissions is like in this day and age and knew that she could NOT count on getting in because of the odds and she knew they turned away the very best students. She was realistic from the start. She had two first choices as of that fall and then when winter came on, she had three first choices and frankly liked the other schools on her list too even with these three preferences. I thought, Thank God, she is not thinking it HAD to be one certain school or bust. The odds were so great at this level and she knew it and this approach worked. </p>
<p>When she got deferred in EA, she did NOT get bent out of shape. She never cried or dwelled on it and in fact, her reaction was, I expected this because of the odds. It is not like she could have done anything better in any facet of her life/qualifications really or on the application materials. She knew that. It was the situation. In fact, she felt quite pleased that she even made the deferral cut and not the rejection pile in that round as so many great kids on here did not even make the deferral pile. She eventually got into almost all the schools on her list and had great choices and two of them were the other two "first" choices which turned out to be Brown and Tufts and she eventually chose Brown where she is VERY happy at and says she is so happy she chose it so it all works out in the end. It was not like if she could not have Yale she would not be happy. I strongly encourage you to discuss the situation with Yale admissions for ANYBODY and to explain that you believe in her and that you feel she IS qualified to get in but that does not mean she will get in and the odds are not in her favor or ANYONE's favor there. It is what it is. She should apply but she should NOT count on it. She needs to find other schools that she could love too. Pining away for one particular school when it is a school with under a ten percent admit rate is setting oneself up for disappointment, I fear. </p>
<p>As far as another issue you brought up....theater.....
Yale is known for its graduate theater program, not undergraduate. However, indeed it is a school where there is a lot of theater going on around the campus. I know a girl from our state who is very talented in theater who chose Yale and got in and we visited with her when on campus. She is in a lot of productions there but I am not sure that is her major, per se. It is a school where you can go to study liberal arts but be very active in theater outside the classroom. That is how I think of Yale in regard to theater, rather than a theater program/dept. for undergraduates as much. If that is what YOUR daughter is looking for, there are lots of other places where that is also the case. In fact, that is very true at Brown too. I just came from Parent Weekend at Brown where I attended numerous performing arts events and know a boy involved in theater there who loves it and is double majoring. My D's advisor is in theater. I also can tell you that is also the case at Tufts. Naturally, there are several other schools where theater is thriving and you can study liberal arts. </p>
<p>If your D was strongly considering Dartmouth which is a school I do not think of much when it comes to a school with strong theater going on, then she should be open to plenty of schools. It does not seem as if theater is her main criteria based on that observation, so therefore I am not quite clear on why Yale is so critical in that respect. </p>
<p>I have a daughter pursuing theater in college but will not be looking at BA programs but rather is applying to BFA degree programs in musical theater so am quite familiar with "theater" schools, as well as she has some friends going for BA degrees but want strong theater. Some of THOSE kids are trying for Brown. If your D is not planning to major in theater but merely wants a school with strong theater as an EC, there are several places that are excellent schools that fit that bill. I don't think Yale is unique in that regard at all and in fact, it mostly exists as an EC for undergrads. The well regarded aspect is their graduate school of Drama. Has your D looked into Vassar? That may be a good match school for her. I think there is a lot of theater for her at Tufts too. I would make sure she visited and met with kids in theater and faculty too at those schools so she can find several where she could get excited. NOBODY, no matter how superb, can count on Yale. That is just the way it is, no reflection of your D. She should go for it but with a realistic outlook, not due to her "lower stats than her brothers" but more because she is good enough but that may not be enough to get in the gate. Believe me, many of us have kids who had what it takes for selective schools who were still shut out of Yale last year. So, don't focus on her not being good enough to get in but more on the state of elite admissions today and that she MUST be open to several schools if she is going to play in the big leagues. Otherwise, to only love one school is a recipe for tears.</p>
<p>Susan</p>
<p>Thank you Susan for taking the time to write that wonderful response despite the fact that I could be the reincarnation of someone not deemed worthy of advice. What am I missing here?</p>
<p>I printed your response for daughter and she was appreciative. We've looked at Brown and Vassar, but Tufts hadn't crossed my mind. Will look into. Dartmouth is a consideration because her Dad went there and older brother is there. In all honesty, she's all over the map. Did your daughter ever consider a tear off to pursue theatre opportunities? After Yale, that would be her next c.</p>
<p>Lisa, I don't know anything about Yale or you. I was simply answering Kinshasa's question.</p>
<p>Lisa, I am glad you found my experiences or thoughts useful and that it helps your D to see the reality of the situation itself, not about her qualifications as much. If she could approach it with the thought of giving it a try but knowing the odds in that game are so difficult, that it is so unpredictable and how great it would be to find SEVERAL favorites, as I am convinced a kid could be happy at way more than one school. </p>
<p>I am not absolutely sure what you meant by: "Did your daughter ever consider a tear off to pursue theatre opportunities? After Yale, that would be her next c."</p>
<p>Did you mean my older daughter who is now a college freshman? She has done a lot of musical theater and instrumental music and dance, and while she does love performing arts, it never has been her main interest but more of one of many long term interests and it is definitely not her college academic or career interest. Thus her choice of college had nothing to do with theater. She looked into doing a musical at Brown (her sister has an older friend very active in theater at Brown who has met my older D now that she is at Brown and has talked to her about doing a show on campus)....but they rehearse six nights per week from 7-11 and she just cannot do that as she is in other things, namely a varsity sport and that sport is an even bigger love. So, no pursuing theater opportunities in college was not big for her in her college search as it is for your D. She lovesher many arts pursuits equally with her many sports. My other D, on the other hand, who is applying to colleges right now, has theater as her main passion in life and over the years, gave up all her sports to focus on performing arts and in her case, that is her aim in selecting colleges and is going after a professional degree...BFA in musical theater, as she hopes to go into this as a career so it is an entirely different ballgame. She has many friends pursuing a BFA in musical theater (friends from out of state whom she knows from a summer program she has attended every year) but some of her theater friends are going for liberal arts degrees where they can still be very active in theater and I know some of those kids are applying to Brown....not sure where else...maybe Cornell....Middlebury, Connecticut College. </p>
<p>What did you mean that after Yale, that would be her next c.?</p>
<p>Carolyn I think the number of bogus and exaggerating posters is a relatively common phenomenon here and at most other on-line communities. The ETS data indicate that the 1500+ SAT is extremely rare, but not here. Now I agree that there is a degree of self selection going on here which would raise the bar but not to the extent that I is reported here.</p>
<p>How many hs'ers are yearning for "academic rigor"? Not many that I know of and I have been in academe for 39 years as a student and faculty member. My son is a good enough student but he scours the course offerings for that gut elective to ease the workload as a CompSci/CogSci major. </p>
<p>The degree of anonymity is also a red flag. "My daughter was rejected by Swarthmore but love where she is now?" Well where is she now? Why the reticence? I never was hesitent to list the colleges my wife (RPI), son(RPI) and I(OSU,Cornell) attend(ed). I can understand not naming the HS, address, etc.. Identifying college names, if true, would add to the discussion here.</p>
<p>Help me, I'm dense. Why did mom101 get banned? Do we care if stats are inflated--or hidden?</p>
<p>Carolyn - had the same thoughts a couple of days ago. . .</p>
<p>Regardless of the authenticity of the post, the situation is a common one. About the only way to work it is to support completely the reach app, making it known that rejection is a real possibility as many applicants with better academic statistics and greater theatrical achievement have been rejected in the past. If the student is just below the line for Yale, schools like Williams, Brown and Northwestern are great options.</p>
<p>Middlebury, NYU, CMU and Kenyon are less selective and would be worth investigating.</p>
<p>In her book "Winning the Heart of the College Admissions Dean" Joyce Slayton Mitchell recommends have "Eight first choices." How's that for idealism at its most impractical? Of course elite, selective colleges are more appealing than the one's our kids can easily get into: that's how the human animal is made! Applying ED just compounds the problem; the student is meant to love his/her ED/EA choice with all his/her heart and soul, but at the same time steel him/herself for rejection and be prepared to jump into action for choices #2-8 (or 18). It's hard enough for parents who are presumably experienced at rejection, but for hormone raging, insecure teenagers it's a tough period. </p>
<p>Having said that I will repeat my mantra: Love thy safety! I believe good safeties are out there and that it should be the top priority of every parent to help their kids identify, visit and if not love at least become reasonably fond of one or two safeties.</p>
<p>I don't know anything about Lisa's daughter so this isn't a comment on her ability to get into Yale or Williams, but rather a general observation. From talking to my son's classmates I would say that there are a lot kids at Williams who were rejected by HYPS and there are a lot of kids at Williams who turned down HYPS themselves. There are also kids at HYPS who were rejected by Williams and Swarthmore and Amherst! I would not under any circumstances put AWS in anyone's safety or even match column. Their selectivity percentage may not be as low as HYPS, but selective they are and getting more so and all three are touchy about being viewed as second choice to ivies.</p>
<p>Lisa, Williams just spent $30 million on a new theater and performing arts center. They are definitely going to be looking for students interested in theater!</p>
<p>Gee, and here I thought we were going to help Lisa....</p>
<p>It seems to me that loading her daughter up with options like Brown and Williams isn't terribly helpful given the limited info we have about her daughter. Like asking someone who is applying to Georgetown and Michigan law schools why they haven't considered Columbia as well....</p>
<p>As i mentioned, there are thousands of former Yale lovers out there in the real world doing well at places like Northwestern and Brandeis.... not sure admits by any means, but a bit more predictable in their decisions. I'm sure people here can come up with a list of 20 schools where their former Yale-loving friends have ended up and have thrived. I don't know that if I were Lisa, I'd be taking to the bank the fact that Soozie's daughter was rejected from Yale but got into Brown, so that ergo, Brown is a good back-up for my Yale loving kid. My kids high school has a decent track at HYP and a terrible track at Brown.... the "high enough" stats kid with stellar EC's doesn't cut it at Brown anymore, despite the hype that they're not numbers driven. Soozie's daughter was Val, don't forget, and a strong possibility for a varsity team.</p>
<p>The kids we know who got into Yale were beyond superstars... not just "into" theater, but kids with world class EC's in addition to very high scores, stellar grades, and exceptional intellectual interests. I hope Lisa's kid is among them, but some realistic options in the mix wouldn't hurt.</p>
<p>Blosssom:</p>
<p>Some of the kids who got into Yale were perhaps beyond superstars, but others just happened to fill a particular niche the year they applied. If the college does not need a cello player, a great cello-playing student won't get in though s/he might have gotten in the previous year and another cello player may again in a couple of years. That's what makes admission at uber-selective colleges such a crapshoot: it's not just about competing with kids with stratospheric achievements, but fitting the college's notion of the kind of community it wants to build. </p>
<p>But I agree it does not make sense suggesting other uber selective colleges as alternatives to Yale.</p>
<p>Carolyn, I can't help but agree.</p>