<p>Blossom, I TRIED to help (as a long-time Yale interviewer) but I couldn't get any other answer to my question about WHY YALE except for "theater" --- which, as everyone has pointed out, is not a good reason to go to Yale <em>undergrad.</em> If that was the only answer I got as an interviewer (other than "great school, great academics") I would probably give a rating of 1 or 2 out of a top of nine --- and as I have said before, interviews may not count for much, but in all the time I did them, NOT ONE PERSON I ever ranked below a 4 EVER got in. Not to say it was because of me, but while a good interview score might not matter, I would think a TERRIBLE one would make peple sit up and take notice.</p>
<p>BTW if people think the Massacre is bad NOW, in my area of the country I am told that the current 9th graders constitute the largest high school class in years and years. These kids are the class of 2008. I hear it just gets worse and worse until at least 2011, when it BEGINS to level off or decrease - but that just means that for several years more it'll probably be higher than it is now.</p>
<p>But for those readers who are reading this because their children fall into this category, I felt myself in this boat last year, although things ended happily for S and us. I just kept giving him positive information about the other schools to which he was applying and I kept reminding him that the competition was very, very fierce at his first choice school. He pretty much got the message and although he would have been bitterly disappointed not to get in, he would I know have been okay in the end. I guess the one thing that helped was thoroughly researching the other schools on the list and printing out any articles, posts, threads, etc. that I could find online and in books that showed how those schools would feed into son's strengths and interests. </p>
<p>Sometimes though, you just have to face the fact that this may be a hard time in your child's life and they may not get what they want. I haven't heard of a person who hasn't been able to pick themselves up, dust themselves off, and go on. Last year in the senior parents' night, one of the most-revered teachers at school read us an email from a student who had not been admitted to her first-choice reach school and wrote from her ultimate destination how happy she was that she had NOT gotten in and how it is true that things really do work out fine and how happy she was. Hopefully the many thousands of kids who are about to face this reality will all feel the same way in the end.</p>
<p>blossum, I TOTALLY agree that Brown is in NO way a back up to Yale! Nor is Williams! I only mentioned Brown as another school where there is a lot of theater going on but that school is just as much of a crapshoot. Brown was definitely not a back up school for my D by any means. She had a few reach schools but loved her match schools and safeties. In fact, I mentioned one of her safeties to Lisa because that school is one that I know some theater loving kids have gone to and it is Conn College. I surely think Lisa's child needs match and safety schools. I don't even know her stats or enough about her to even responsibly suggest schools. Off the cuff I mentioned Vassar as I assume if she is in the ballpark for Yale, Vassar might be an apppropriate match school, not sure. </p>
<p>By the way, my D was not a recruited athlete anywhere. Her sports were one of many ECs on her resume but nobody recruited her. </p>
<p>I also agree that a kid could get into Yale and not Brown as I have heard of such cases. I interviewed a val for Tufts who did not get in but is now at Brown. At the very selective schools, it is a bit of a lottery ticket once you have what it takes to be strongly considered. Thus one school can go your way and another one of equal selectivity may not and there often is no rhyme or reason that is noticeable. It could be that one school wanted more cellists and another wanted more newspaper editor types or anything of that sort. That is why my own kid knew that she very well might not get into any of her reaches and even the matches never felt like sure things at all. Like another mom said, love thy safeties. I am so grateful that my D truly liked all of her schools. She couldn't even decide where to go come April. </p>
<p>In Lisa's D's case, in order to make true recommendations of schools (not that she asked for them), I would have to know far more about her than she has posted. I hope she has a well balanced list because even without knowing her qualifications, the situation with selective admissions requires a well balanced list. I read too many posts by students on here where I see no clear safety school or hardly any match schools either. Sometimes they tack on their state school as a safety and the rest are all reaches and claim that they hate the thought of going to their state school and I scratch my head thinking, there are so many great schools in between Ivy and state university. A lot of kids (and parents) need to come down to earth on their college lists that are ALL top heavy. The state of selective admissions today is not what it was in our day when being highly qualified often meant you could get in.</p>
<p>I am surprised why so many people are stuck on Yale. Northwestern, Cornell, Indiana, Carnegie Mellon, NYU and Tufts are all excellent universities with equally good drama and theatre programs.</p>
<p>My daughter's list, in order of preference: Yale, Williams, Dartmouth, Pamona University of Michigan, Muhlenberg, SUNY Binghampton. At this point this is the sum total of where she will apply. To answer the "why" question, I think it is just emotional. She fell in love with Yale years ago when we visited a friend's child in graduate school (yes, theatre). Taking a year or more off is another consideration. I been been through this on the musical theatre discussion, but for those I won't again bore, she has an agent and has some work in commercials. Her father thinks it's a bloody horribly idea but I am not against her seeing if she can make a mark in theatre or TV before college. Thoughts?</p>
<p>Lisa, I sympathize, because my daughter, who also has a theatre background, was in the same boat as yours last year. She fell in love with Yale, applied EA, and then was distraught over getting deferred on December 15--even though she's quite statistically oriented and knew that the odds were against her. </p>
<p>Unfortunately, as Patient says, we can't always protect our kids from these disappointments, as painful as they are for all concerned. The only concrete advice I can offer is to make sure your daughter finishes every possible other application before December 15. My daughter kept putting hers off--she's a procrastinator anyway, and may also have had some magical thought that putting her eggs in one basket would help prove her love for Yale--and I can't begin to describe the misery of having to work on applications over Christmas vacation, when her self-confidence was at an all-time low. </p>
<p>Other posters have suggested some terrific schools to consider, though I do echo the cautions about Brown. My daughter was ultimately accepted at Yale and wait-listed at other Ivies, but Brown is the one school that turned her down flat.</p>
<p>Meanwhile, good luck on December 15 and afterwards.</p>
<p>What else is she interested in besides theater? I would again suggest Chicago. Her stats are in the ballpark, and it provides an excellent education. So does Northwestern, which has a different feel. If she is inclined toward math/science, CMU would also be a great choice. I notice that Alexandre, who went to Michigan, does not put it on the list.</p>
<p>"I TOTALLY agree that Brown is in NO way a back up to Yale! Nor is Williams!"</p>
<p>If you back the international applicants out of Yale (who are admitted at only a 2-3% rate), the admissions rate at Yale and Williams all of a sudden just don't look all that different. The major difference in fact (and what accounts for virtually the entire small difference in SAT scores) is that Williams supports a huge number of NESCAC athletic teams with a much smaller student population.</p>
<p>Having said that, note that the quality of the education offered is not necessarily a function of selectivity (which simply tells you about how many folks were rejected.) The undergraduate education at Yale may be wonderful, but it is certainly not that much more wonderful than that which a student would receive at Grinnell (which also has much higher rates of graduate school admissions.)</p>
<p>Daughter's college counselor paints Chicago as a work hard school, not my daughter's style, lol. Do you think Muhlenberg is a good safety for a sound liberal arts education and good theatre?</p>
<p>I don't know Muhlenberg, so cannot comment. If not Chicago, which, I agree is an intense college, what about Northwestern? It also offers tons of theater-related opportunities but is more laid back than Chicago, while also providing an excellent education.</p>
<p>Lisa, I hope she looks at Northwestern more seriously. My freshman roommate majored in theater and now teaches voice in NYC and is a composer. It's bigger than an LAC but not unmanageably so. The School of Communication (formerly Speech) is a small, tight-knit group within the larger university, and within the school are the theater people, radio-tv-film majors, etc. And so many theater groups and opportunities on campus!</p>
<p>Yes, I think Muhlenberg is a good choice for your daughter. It is strong in theater for kids like your D going for a BA and not a professional degree. I know a girl with a strong theater background applying there. </p>
<p>Personally, I would not be as into taking the time off with the hopes of pursuing auditions before college. I think if your D wants to go into theater and wants her education, this is a great path and she can always hit the audition circuit four years from now and will look better for it too. What does your agent think? I know my D's agent has clients who have been on Bdway and such who are now in college programs now that they are of college age. </p>
<p>I also wonder why your D is not looking into BFA programs if she wishes to pursue theater to the degree you just mentioned, even considering a year or two off to hit auditions? Some of her schools like Dartmouth are not even too theater heavy. Would a happy medium between time off to pursue theater jobs and the other end of getting a BA in liberal arts and doing theater on the side as an EC be maybe doing a college degree program IN theater? Just a thought that occurs to me in your D's situation. If she loves theater to that degree, I am wondering why she has not considered a theater program in college? </p>
<p>I think the suggestion of Northwestern for your D is a good one too that someone posted.</p>
<p>Marite, I know Michigan is excellent in drama and thater. But whenever I recommend Michigan, I get jumped on and I get called names! LOL Seriously, Michigan is amazing in Musical Theatre (top 5 in the nation), but in straight out drama, Michigan is good, but not as good as Carnegie Mellon or Northwestern.</p>
<p>Marite, fret not. I am still the same nutty Wolverine! I mean, are you kiddin' me! I am flying from Dubai, UAE to Ann Arbor in exactly two weeks for the Michigan vs Northwestern game. And then, I am staying in the US for a extra week to watch the Michigan vs OSU game in Chicago. I already made my restaurant reservations and hotel reservations in Chicago! Go Michigan baby!!! LOL And by the way, just so that you understand what this trip entails:</p>
<p>20 hours on a plane.
$2,000 worth of plane tickets.
An Arab (me) freezing his patooty off all over the Great Lakes area.
An Arab (me again) having to go through US customs in a post 9/11 World! </p>
<p>Yeah, we Wolverines will brave all sorts of hazards to watch their team on Football Saturday.</p>
<p>Just a note of humor on the rejection issue. When I was in law school (last century) at U of Chicago, we had a wine party where you got a free glass of wine for every law school rejection letter you brought. However, letters from Harvard did not count since almost everyone had one! Obviously, we all got over it and went on to appreciate and respect where we were.<br>
On another note, I would not recommend Chicago for an undergraduate unless he/she was prepared to be with a LOT of nerds and have a social environment somewhat different than what one usually finds at college. IT is a good fit for many kids, but it takes a certain type...... I know when I was in law school I remember thinking I would have HATED Chicago as an undergrad (I went to Indiana).</p>
<p>Karen, as nutty as this may seem, I would pick Chicago Law school over Harvard Law school in a heartbeat. I find Chicago's socialist approach to law very appealing.</p>
<p>As for undergraduate studies, I do not see how Chicago would be any different from MIT, Columbia or Penn. Obviously, it takes a good fit, but one can say the same thing of any student planning to attend any university.</p>
<p>Alexandre....have a great time going back to Mich...what a football fan will do!</p>
<p>The thing is with UMich and CMU for theater, these are BFA programs (granted, tops in the country), but the OP was not looking at BFA programs. Thus I do not think those schools are suitable for her D.</p>
<p>Susan, you know much more about Drama/Theatre than I do. I knew Michigan wasn't great in regular Drama/Theatre. That is why I did not recommend it. I was under the impression that CMU was pretty good, but I am not sure.</p>
<p>By the way, visit us on the Michigan forum sometime and give us updates on your D. I hope she gets into her top choice program.</p>
<p>I am seeing a lot of kids falling in love with a super reach right now. What happens is that they visit the school, read about it, think about sometimes to the exclusion of other colleges and before they know it they have pretty much set their minds that they HAVE to go there. It happens to adults to. And it can really hurt when reality hits.</p>
<p>Having said that, I do believe that every kid has the right to apply and try for his super reach. My son is throwing in an app to HPY, unsupported by his school, but he figures since the bulk of his apps are to musical theatre and other highly selective theatre programs where maybe 10 kids get in each year so even low double digit acceptance rates look pretty good to him. And some of those other schools are not at all selective in other areas. Schools like Santa Fe, Catholic, Emerson, Point Park, SUNY Purchase do not seem like long shots, but in particular programs they have very low acceptance rates. I have been gathering up some info on non audition schools that are matches and safeties for him that have a strong theatre program in case his auditions do not work out. HPY and company are not in that category.</p>
<p>Hopefully, Lisa, your daughter is also looking at some other schools where her chances are more realistic as well. She may well get into Yale. But if she does not, she should be familiar with some other colleges and have spent some time looking for good points in them. One young lady I know had her heart set on Duke and is now loving Vanderbilt. Her mother had the same concern you do when they were going through this process. </p>
<p>As for some posters who prefer to remain anonymous, that is really the recommended venue when posting on these public boards. I am sure there is a lot of bogus info on these boards, but there are also many kids and parents who want some info, some reassurance, some options. I am not concerned if they change their info a bit, in order to keep some privacy. I recognized several posters, and some have also recognized me from real life--not a big deal, but I don't feel like having everyone know who I am. Also since my children are often the subject of my posts, I don't really want to announce their stats and situations so obviously. This is a happy medium for me, but some poster may want to be even more oblique about their identities and some outright open. That is our choice.</p>