<p>Brownflavors, I do not have stats for Cornell and NU. However, I would assume that Cornell and NU have similar statistics. Only Harvard, Yale, Princeton and perhaps Stanford will have significantly more impressive placement rates into top Law schools. Dartmouth, Duke and a couple others will also have higher rates, but not as significant.</p>
<p>Not a problem -- if anyone does have the Cornell or Northwestern law matriculation data, I would be interested.</p>
<p>Alexandre, what about UChicago, Duke, and Columbia (I was waitlisted there) - do they have significantly better matriculation rates?</p>
<p>Thanks!</p>
<p>Brownflavors, you really should stop worrying about insignificant details. You aren't going to find any substantial differences. The fact is, adcoms aren't going to differentiate between any of the schools you have been admitted into or waitlisted by. If you had Harvard, Princeton, Stanford and Yale on the table, it MAY be a different story, and even that's debatable. However, once you get past those 4 universities, there isn't going to be a substantial difference in placement rates or any reason to assume that one university ranked at the top is going to help you get into Law School more than another university ranked at the top.</p>
<p>brownflavors,</p>
<p>I think you might be confusing correlation with causation. The HYPS students are admitted to top law schools in higher proportion because they are now, and have always been, more impressive students. That's how they got in to those schools in the first place.</p>
<p>What you need to know is whether a <em>given</em> student has a higher chance applying from Cornell vs. Northwestern vs. Berkeley, etc.</p>
<p>I don't know how one could ever answer that question.</p>
<p>the only correlary I know of is the question of whether a <em>given</em> student is more likely to be successful in business by attending HYPS vs. Big State U (or any non-HYPS school after having been offered admission to HYPS. The (Rand I think) longtitudinal study flollowing students from the 60s and 70s indicates that there is no difference between students admitted to HYPS and attending, vs. students admitted but then choosing for financial, or other reasons to attend another less prestigious school.</p>
<p>The moral of the story is that success comes from within, not without. A student whose qualities earned them admission to HYPS apparently maintains those setting apart qualities for the balance of their life, and the college they attended makes absolutely NO DIFFERENCE.</p>
<p>I agree - I was confusing correlation with causation. There is an inherent selection bias.</p>
<p>Alexandre, I was waitlisted at those schools. I will likely be accepting my position on those. I suppose I will not on the three I listed above.</p>
<p>Thanks!</p>
<p>brownflavors, I realize I should have given you my choice --</p>
<p>UM Honors. In my opinion only, adcoms at law schools will view UM Honors and NU and Cornell as being equivalent. UM Honors, I would presume, would give you some advantages in class enrollment priority, access to advisors, first access to internships, etc. Am I correct about that?</p>
<p>P.S. my niece is at NU, and it appears to be a great school. But UM has historically had a great reputation too, just a tad behind NU undergrad, but ahead of NU in grad program reputation --- but the undergrad prestige edge (which is greater now than 30 years ago) to NU disappears when you compare with UM Honors. They are equivalent, and UM is much cheaper. Save up for law school.</p>
<p>Thanks DunninLA.</p>
<p>I have a couple concerns about Cornell. And, they fit in line with some of what people have been posting. Maybe someone can allay some of these concerns:
(1) Cost/Benefit -- is there a causal relationship between attending Cornell and success, or is correlation due to a selection bias.
(2) Weather -- I am not a Michigan or Ithaca person. I like the warmth. If Cornell is even colder than Ann Arbor, oh boy. This is why I'm considering Berkeley.
(3) Grade deflation -- although law schools look at the larger picture, their attention to LSAT/ GPA is much stronger than UGs. If Cornell is going to give me .4 less GPA, it is actually disadvantaging me. (I am under the impression that law schools will "take into account" the rigor of the courses, but a 3.8 just looks better than a 3.4) Hopefully, the rigor is restricted to engineering.</p>
<p>Also, with regards to law schools most of you have made it clear UMich v others is not that significant. But, what about for internships and things you are doing in the interim. I have increasingly heard the benefits of Cornell etc are not in the classroom but other, outside things. For instance, more recruiters come to Cornell. And, when applying for things, the Cornell name garners a lot of prestige. Is this true?</p>
<p>(1) Yes, there is a causal relationship between attending Cornell and success. It is roughly as significant as the causal relationship of attending Cal, Michigan or NU and success. All four universities are considered part of the same peer group in the eyes of adcoms and corporate recruiters.</p>
<p>(2) Cornell, Michigan and NU all have roughly equally cold winters. Cal obviously has mild winters.</p>
<p>(3) Cal, Cornell and Michigan are all known for being tough on grades. NU is not known for grade inflation either. In terms of maintaining a high GPA, I would say all four will require serious commitment to studying. You aren't going to be able to coast at any of those schools and none of those schools is going to deny you good grades if you put in the effort.</p>
<p>Finally, in terms of career opportunities, those schools you are considering all have large and frequent career fairs and tons of on-campus recruitment activity. I am not sure who told you more recruiters come to Cornell than Michigan. That is definitely not true. Over 1,000 companies recrut at Michigan, including almost every single Fortune 500 company, the top West Coast tech companies, the top East Coast IBanks and MC firms etc...</p>
<p>If you are a Michigan resident, U Michigan makes the most sense for you in terms of costs and benefits.</p>
<p>brownflavors, I find it <em>very</em> hard to believe Cornell has a recruiting edge over Michigan Honors.</p>
<p>As to causal relationship, I point you to the study referenced in the book 'Harvard Schmarvard' that concluded a prestigious college neither adds to nor detracts from later success in a career. A prestigious college is merely a holding tank for people already possessing exemplary intelligence and drive. These qualities rise to the top in a career regardless of the name on the degree.</p>
<p>As to GPA, you will not find any of the four significantly different from any other. If there is a difference, it would be at most .1 or .2.</p>
<p>As to weather, both Ann Arbor and Cornell are quite cold November - March. Ithaca for some reason is perceived to be colder (maybe because there are a few hills to navigate on the way to class), but the data show them to be very similar.</p>
<p>Thought I'd add here that anyone can go to weather.com, type in the city, and one of the main tabs is "Averages and Records". Here are Ithaca and Ann Arbor:</p>
<p>Average</a> Weather for Ithaca, NY - Temperature and Precipitation</p>
<p>Average</a> Weather for Ann Arbor, MI - Temperature and Precipitation</p>
<p>The only notable difference here is the overnight lows in Ithaca are 4-5 degrees colder than in Ann Arbor.</p>
<p>None of these colleges are better than the others for law school admissions. Any slight difference in law school acceptance data is likely to be due to the slight difference in student quality (with NU/Cornell slightly ahead of UMich/Berkeley). Law school admissions is very formulaic. LSAT is most important and GPA is somewhat important. WIth a 170+ LSAT, admission to a Top 10 law school is practically guaranteed. Things like recs, internships, blah blah blah matter only when you are applying to the top 3 law schools.</p>
<p>Go to the school you think you'd like the best. Obviously, finances will probably work its way into the equation as well.</p>
<p>But, if you are a stat person (like me) and must have the numbers...Page 28:
<a href="http://www.career.cornell.edu/downloads/2007legal_calendarKg.pdf%5B/url%5D">http://www.career.cornell.edu/downloads/2007legal_calendarKg.pdf</a></p>
<p>I think I am frustrating Alexandre, sorry. I guess I am over-analyzing. But, after having spent SO much time on the admissions process, I want to give all the schools a (more than) fair look over UMich. I could have gotten into UMich Honors with 1/2 the work. So, I guess I am nit-picking.</p>
<p>I do think it is interesting that you said grade deflation was equal across all schools. I have read in multiple places that Cornell has ridiculously difficult classes. But, you have actually been to Cornell.</p>
<p>I was clearly misinformed about recruiting. Three of my friends said the east coast swing and Ivy name helps with internships. I guess they were wrong.</p>
<p>norcalguy -- what classes should I take and what things should I do over the next 3 or so years to best prepare for the LSAT?</p>
<p>Thanks all!</p>
<p>This is amazing, thanks DunninLA!</p>
<p>Climatology</a> Comparison for Ann Arbor, MI - weather.com</p>
<p>What about this comparison:
Climatology</a> Comparison for Ann Arbor, MI - weather.com</p>
<p>
[quote]
The highest temperature, 107°F in Berkeley, CA, was recorded in 2000
[/quote]
I think this was on my graduation day. Black gown and 2pm graduation outside was not fun.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I do think it is interesting that you said grade deflation was equal across all schools. I have read in multiple places that Cornell has ridiculously difficult classes. But, you have actually been to Cornell.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Absolutely not. Cornell has the whiniest students. People on CC make way too big a deal over differences in difficulty between different schools. Cornell or UChicago are NOT more difficult than Harvard or Stanford. Their students are just whiny. </p>
<p>The real difference in difficulty lies between different majors. Engineering is hard at every school. Sociology is a fluff major at every school. The reason Cornell or MIT or Berkeley are perceived as tougher is that they have a higher proportion of the student body in science/premed/engineering career tracks. As a prelaw student, you can major in anything you want. You will likely major in something liberal artsy which means difficulty of courses probably won't be the greatest of your concerns.</p>
<p>I like your second explanation -- more engineering majors, so more people talking about the difficulty of their classes. I actually hadn't read any of that on CC, though. Haha...</p>
<p>
[quote]
I do think it is interesting that you said grade deflation was equal across all schools. I have read in multiple places that Cornell has ridiculously difficult classes. But, you have actually been to Cornell.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>this is just plain myth. i don't understand people who claim that cornell is like the hardest school and it has a wide spread depression among student body. i was actually a bit afraid of this b4 i came here, but my experience here so far proves this wrong. people are willing to colloborate on projects, willing to share notes, willing to study together, and aren't just cutthroat at all. (maybe except for premeds) also, workload is reasonable as long as u keep up and not slack off. only kids who complain about their grades or workload, it seems like, are slacker kids who try to catch up 2 days b4 exams or the kids who aren't very gifted in the first place.</p>
<p>
[quote]
what classes should I take and what things should I do over the next 3 or so years to best prepare for the LSAT?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>i think it helps if you read scholarly journals, such as the Economist. try to develop comprehension skills and your logical abilities while u read. btw, this is what i do, too. </p>
<p>As far as law school goes, just to clarify, it is all about gpa and lsat. But, lsat is more important. I have seen numerous people w/ 3.8+ gpas who got rejected from every T14 law schools, bc they scored lower than 167 or 168 on lsat. So, law school placement depends on your ability, not the name of the school you went to.</p>
<p>Thanks patless. I actually have read about 50-75% of every economist that has been published for the last two years. What a weird coincidence that that was your example. </p>
<p>(I do extemp)</p>
<p>patlees88 said "except for premeds".</p>
<p>Now that you mention it, my wife's toughest class at cornell was sophomore year. she worked the hardest she'd ever worked before or after (and that includes a Ph.D.) in a bio course with premeds in which she was very happy to get a B-.</p>