<p>First of all I want to thank the parents on this board for being an amazing resource for college admissions--even more so than the books written by former admissions officers that we can find in the bookstores. I had to educate myself rapidly over the summer about elite college admissions when we found out that our daughter has the credentials to apply and that it would be unfair on our part if we held her back to go our amazing state school. So with the encouragement from her teachers and guidance counselor and some cheerleading from friends we ended up supporting her application to a wide range of schools as she wasn't sure what she wanted from college. She is 16.5. Today she is left with the following choices:</p>
<p>Barnard (as Centennial Scholar which is offered to 12 students in the incoming class), Swarthmore (Early Write with plane ticket to Ride the Tide--we are not URM or poor), UPenn and Wellesley (Early Evaluation).</p>
<p>Waitlisted: Harvard and Columbia </p>
<p>I don't want to post the stats or accomplishments of D (she would not like me to) but she can find something positive about each of these schools and can see herself at any one of them. I would like some imput from the wise parents on this board which we can combine with her own impressions from visits to make a final choice in a month. The post "Closing doors" is apt. After months of waiting she has under a month to make an irrevocable decision. Please advise! Thanks.</p>
<p>Which ones will she visit? UPenn seems the odd man out, sizewise, and size/location are the parameters that often change the most during the senior year - in other words, if she hasn't visited since fall, occasionally what they thought was the right size or location seems wrong at the end. I gues I would encourage Ride the Tide and take the train in to see UPenn on the same weekend.</p>
<p>Otherwise is there any particular program available at one and not the others? Sounds like spreadsheet time as well :). Great dilemma to have.</p>
<p>These are all various flavors of great schools- I suspect that one will float her boat if she visits...take the free plane ticket, or don't...fly in and train or plane north. I'll bet that by the end she will know...and now you know to trust her! Every parent with a child at one of these schools has something to say about them. Absolutely nothing is more relevant than her gut...What are you thinking? What is she thinking? What would you need to hear to change your mind? What would she need to see/feel/hear to change hers? Rather than listening to individual opinions- I would try to help her answer these questions before she visits...</p>
<p>And, congratulations....by the way, in a similar situation last year my son really surprised me with his ultimate key criteria...it was a long and expensive trip, but well worth taking...</p>
<p>D's decision came down to 2 schools--and she made last minute visits and stayed overnight this time at each school. She gave serious thought and chose the college that she's now attending before the end of the trip. </p>
<p>So I'd suggest getting the final list down to 2 or 3 (at the most) and then making one more visit.</p>
<p>The schools are all so different!<br>
Barnard is not very large, but it is in NYC. Swarthmore and Wellesley are both suburban. Good access to larger cities, but still suburban. Additionally, Wellesley is a women's college, which makes for a very different climate both in and outside the classroom. UPenn, as others have noted, is the outlier in terms of size.<br>
I agree your D should visit. Congrats on her wonderful choices, by the way.</p>
<p>Penn is the outlier in terms of size for her accepted schools, but not for her total list, which had included others of that size.</p>
<p>But I agree they are very different. It's time to ask again the questions, small or bigger, suburban or urban, Women's or co-ed. Basically, you have two of each, except on the size issue. </p>
<p>I will show this thread to her. She picked large schools since we live in a suburban community and she has always gone to small schools but I made her apply to LACs because I felt they might be better fit and hoped she can find out later which colleges are truly good fits if/when she gets in. She likes to have a wide range of cultural opportunities and she's a writer--so she will need outlets and classes to develop those strengths while pursing other interests (whatever they maybe!). I would like to 'sell' Swarthmore to her as it was my favorite school when we visited but she liked the bustle of bigger schools. She is used to individual attention and being coddled in school so I fear she won't thrive in larger schools where she won't have access to professors. I would really like to know more about Penn as she applied there on a whim--any first-hand experiences?</p>
<p>There is a lot to be said for Barnard. Small school (lots of personal attention) inside a big school. Single gender school inside a coed environment. Bustle of the city.</p>
<p>Keep your eyes peeled on the mail...perhaps your D will be named a Benjamin Franklin or a University Scholar at Penn...this provides special advising and funded research opportunities anywhere in the world as well as weekly seminars with free food...sounds like she has the credentials to be invited into these programs. As far as cultural amenities my D loves music and attends Penn and the Philadelphia Orchestra has student tickets for like $8. As a Columbia alum I found that some of the best professors and classes were the ones I took at Barnard. The only negative about Barnard is the constant infighting between the Columbia and Barnard women which would not be an issue at any of the other schools. Good luck, great choices.</p>
<p>good luck and enjoy this next month with your girl. this is one of the last time's in life where you will be her chief confidant. Visit two schools on Accepted Days and stay open. Personally, I don't think you can replicate the beauty and long term impact of smaller classrooms that make Swat's education impact so unique and Philly is still right there, plus your social life does not have to be bound in by the small school size in that surburban setting. Grad school sometimes is a better marriage with larger research college IMHO. My S had to choose between a very similar wonderful LAC and a school the size of Penn...it is a sometimes bittersweet trade off, and never entirely reconciled. He chose the larger school where he could participate in classical music a few hours a week as a player with a hundred other like-minded people because that is central to his sense of beauty and mental health, but I feel he is also always "looking" for the LAC corners and aspects of Duke. You have to dig to get the LAC style teaching at a place like Penn or Duke, but there are many classroom settings that come close to it. On the other hand, he is in one class with 400 kids at the moment which is the antithesis of his ideal. We also are graced with fine state universities in Virginia, and I think the most resilient kids who truly can assume responsiblity for learning and self teaching do just fine in larger classrooms, and enjoy the diversity of a larger school and peer group.</p>
<p>Penn is really the outlier on that list in many ways:</p>
<p>a) At 10,000 undergrads, it's the size of many state schools.</p>
<p>b) It will be the one school that has very large classes, TAs, etc. To be frank, it's not known as an undergrad focused university. This should be of particular concern with an interest in writing. My experience has been that writing really can't be taught in a lecture format and works best in a small mentoring scale. You aren't going to get the kind of draft/professor conference/revision cycle on writing papers common at Swarthmore from a large university. Two entirely different scales.</p>
<p>c) Penn is the one school on the list that is a hard-core party/frat school, versus three schools with below average binge drinking rates.</p>
<p>Here is a Live Journal thread that may be interesting: Three Swarthmore students and a Penn student discussing taking classes at Penn. Not a scientific sample. One Swat student hated her two bio classes at Penn. Another enjoyed her "Feminist Political Thought" course. Another enjoyed a Hinduism course at Penn -- thought the course was easier than Swat courses, but that the PhD student TA who taught it was knowledgeable. The Penn student who joined in the conversation said that the courses at Penn were "hit or miss", that you have to shop a lot of courses to find the good ones.</p>
<p>Regarding the waitlists (and this is just my opinion, mind) - unless she has an overwhelming desire to attend one or the other, it may help her to resolve things in her own mind to decline the waitlists. Realistically - chances are very slim: if she does remain on one, she needs to give it her best shot (with updates and such) - and then just forget about it - and assume its done. Waitlists remind me of revolving doors - dangerous things to get stuck in.</p>
<p>Good choices--congrats! One of my neighbors' daughters graduated from Barnard a few years ago, where she was class president. My neighbor told me that with Barnard, she got to go to both a small school and a large school, and both an all-girls school and a coed school. That impressed me. </p>
<p>Kids I've known (from St. Paul, Minnesota) haven't taken well to Penn. Don't know exactly why. Not warm and fuzzy, or . . .? Swat is lovely but super-intellectual. Wellesley is top notch if you want the all-women's thing.</p>
<p>Son is a freshman at Penn. He came from a small HS where he loved the discourse and personal relationships. He was accepted to some GREAT LAC's- but decided on Penn ultimately for 2 reasons- proximity to family (we live very, very far away- our extended family is close) and because he wanted a school that would serve his needs as a junior and senior, not just as a freshman.</p>
<p>He has really not enjoyed his larger classes. He does not have a great advisor-- he got very 'standard' advice and ended up with 4/5 very big classes this semester and he is not happy-- but next semester 4/5 will be small. Everything else about Penn is perfect for him- he has one very terrific EC affiliation and does 3 other things more periodically that are rewarding and diverse. He has made some very good friends. He loves being in the city. He loves the buzz at Penn. He has made excellent grades(though he was not happy with one of them, no matter)..He has found an informal advisor who augments the input he gets 'officially.' He likes several of his professors this semester and has spoken with two about research next year. He is great at self advocacy and can make the bigger school work for him...He is also happy to talk about and through what is not perfect. I had breakfast with him and his girlfriend this week- she is thrilled at Penn- got better advice than he and has a better range of classes this semester- and like him is very busy with a wide range of other endeavors...</p>
<p>One of his 2 best friends is at Swarthmore. That boy's older brother graduated from their last year. This boy is very, very happy at Swarthmore- as his brother had been. My son has been out to visit many times and has also had EC experiences while at Swat. He has even gone to a class with his friend. Naturally, he loved it!! </p>
<p>I have asked several times if my son feels he would want to consider a transfer to a smaller school. My son firmly and definitely says no... He feels closed in a Swat, it is too homogeneous for him and he likes the bigger playing field at Penn...and he only has 5 more weeks as a freshman. He knows the best is yet to come!</p>
<p>The transition to college has been much easier for his friends who have chosen LAC's for the most part. His brother attends a fine little LAC and has had none of the same concerns as my son at Penn...but I still think, and most importantly HE still thinks, he made an excellent choice..I also think that he has learned some excellent lessons about himself, about coping when things are less than optimal, about how to function without being coddled...</p>
<p>My D is a freshman at Penn and has all small classes, so it is hard to generalize. It depends on the major, prerequisites, language ability and a whole host of other factors...</p>
<p>My daughter just graduated from Swarthmore last May and absolutely loved everything about it. She had small classes, exellent advisors, was very involved in ECs and made several life long friends. She went back to visit the campus on her graduate school fall break and is planning another visit to friends on campus and in the area in May. She is a very intense person and took advantage of every opportunity while at Swat.</p>
<p>Perhaps we should quantify terms like "small" and "large" classes.</p>
<p>This semester, my soph D at Swarthmore ended up with two large classes -- a really popular English lit core class with 35 and an art history lecture class with 27. Her other two courses have 17 and 8.</p>
<p>The seminar with 8 students is taught by her academic advisor -- so she has gotten to know the professor quite well. Actually, her initial freshman advisor arranged the hand-off to the new advisor after first semester freshman year when it became evident that her potential major had changed.</p>
<p>You are absolutely right! Small and Large are relative to the individual college or university. My daughter's "large" classes at Swarthmore had 30 - 35 students and her smallest class was a seminar with just 3 students.</p>