Hello all,
After a long and arduous application process, I’m finally down to three schools that I believe are the best fits economically and academically for me. But now I can’t choose between them! Any advice is greatly appreciated! I would like to go into the field of litigation and patent law, so I would like to get an engineering degree before law school.
School #1: Fordham University in Rose Hill
Net Cost: 19k per year (would probably end up with 1-2k in federal direct loans per year)
Major: Engineering Physics
Pros:
New York location provides boundless social and internship opportunities
Core Curriculum is very writing/reading intensive, good for law school prep.
Smaller school/physics department means smaller classes and more professor interaction.
Less-rigorous engineering major would probably mean a higher GPA.
Cons:
Engineering Physics major is not ABET accredited; however, I can still sit for the patent bar with it.
Most expensive of all 3 of my options, would end up with less than 10k in direct loans.
No word on Honors Program (yet)
School #2: University of Minnesota-Twin Cities
Net Cost: 15k per year, No loans
Major: Mechanical Engineering with Business Law Minor
Pros:
Very strong research opportunities
Highest-ranked engineering program on my list
Mock trial team is quite highly ranked (this is a serious consideration, I’ve done mock for four years so far)
Law minor allows me to take patent/trademark/copyright classes as an undergrad.
Cons:
Core is more annoying than helpful for law school
Lower average GPA could definitely hurt my application
Weather/Location isn’t as appealing as other 2.
School #3: Arizona State University
Net Cost: 18k per year (Very small loans, if any)
Major: Mechanical Engineering
Pros:
Honors program is rigerous+good research opportunities
Law classes as an undergrad (Project Excellence)
Lots of additional opportunities (E+I Scholars, Grand Challenge Scholars)
Best Weather/Housing of any school on my list
Cons:
Lowest-ranked school overall
Tempe is not a great or interesting city IMO
Rumors of grade deflation among engineering is scary
Thanks for reading! Any advice from students, parents, or anyone else is greatly appreciated!
“I would like to go into the field of litigation and patent law, so I would like to get an engineering degree before law school”
Major in engineering because it is something you are passionate about not because you think it is a path to becoming a patent/ litigation attorney. Attorneys hire subject matter experts.
@paveyourpath I’m passionate in engineering don’t worry, I’ve attended an STEM/tech education program for the past 4 years and I’ve loved it. I’m studying engineering because I want to, but I would rather go into the legal field professionally.
I’ve visited ASU, visiting UMN next weekend and Fordham sometime in April probably.
Parents budget is 13-14k per year plus an estimated 4k I’ll be able to earn working.
I don’t think Minnesota’s Core is “more annoying than helpful” for law school. Law school hopefuls have to learn to think broadly and analytically, and that’s what the core requirement exists to help you do. The writing-intensive requirement is obviously good for a law school hopeful, since you write a lot in law school. The Designated Themes look to be extremely useful - all of them are concerned with civic life and ethics, which is necessary ofr a lawyer to understand. And the diversified core is pretty integral to the liberal arts university curriculum but will also help you broaden your thinking and teach you to think in an abstract way that you might not get from your engineering physics courses.
(Besides, the sole purpose of your university education is not to prepare you for law school. It’s far bigger than that.)
Really, the costs are very similar at these three. But if it were me, I think I’d probably pick Minnesota, with Fordham as a close second.
Really, I think it’s dependent upon the kind of experience you want to have. Fordham has its own real campus in the Bronx but it is still very much an urban university - like you said, lots of social and internship opportunities, but that takes a toll somewhat on campus life (students scatter after 5 pm to go enjoy the city). Minnesota will be a more traditional university experience, with big sports and a defined campus experience. The size means that there are tons of activities and organizations to join, and as you mentioned the mock trial team is excellent there. The business law minor is a nice touch. I think the mechanical engineering major is more useful than the engineering physics one - especially in case you change your mind or decide to take a few years between college and law school and work as a professional engineer.
And the Twin Cities may not be New York, but they’re still a large metropolitan area that will have lots of opportunities for you. In fact, the competition may be lower in Minneapolis/St. Paul for the good internships because there are fewer college students and recent grads swarming to the city to try to get experience and make it. They’re also less expensive, which means your dollar will go farther when you want to hang out.
But you’ll probably be better able to choose once you visit them.
@juliet thanks so much for your response!
When I say “more annoying then helpful”, I just mean that it requires me to take alot of courses such as biology and environmental focused courses that I don’t see myself ever using again. The core itself I know will help me regardless, I just like it the least out of the three schools. Additionally, the business Law minor doesn’t contribute to the core whatsoever.
The mock trial team is actually a large issue for me. I have been on the high school team for four years, Captain for two, and recently we placed top 25 at the Empire World Championships. I am looking to see if I could join the Lincoln Center mock trial team at Fordham, but if I couldn’t Minnesota looks like a very good program.
I’m quite excited to visit the twin Cities, I’ve visited New York proper and loved it so I really want to explore Minnesota and see what it has to offer.
Thanks again!
Devil’s advocate (sorry it’s the mom in me lol) - if for whatever reason you do not end up going to law school, your Fordham degree would not be as useful given the lack of ABET certification. That can be a serious deficiency if you wanted to work in an engineering field at any point. I’m a very firm believer in keeping your options open, you just never know…
^^ Good point. Don’t know if the lack of ABET would negatively affect your future in any way. After all, you may decide against Law school/patent law and decide to actually be an eng’r.
Are you a NMF? Is that how you got great merit from Fordham?
I see you are a NMF. Did you apply to any of the schools with ABET eng’g AND BIG NMF awards???
If you were to apply to Alabama NOW (not too late!), you’d get their big NMF award PLUS 2500 per year for eng’g. It would practically be a free ride…
5 years of free tuition (and you can use that extra year at Bama’s excellent law school, if desired).
1 year free housing
3500 per year stipend
2000 study abroad
Technology allowance
Plus 2500 per year for eng’g.
Heck, you could probably graduate within 3 year and use TWO years towards their law school.
Or you can use the two extra semesters to pay for TWO summer abroad programs. You’d be given about $13,500 per summer towards those study abroad programs. …if you chose to spend your extra semesters that way.
Generally, all that matters for law school admissions is LSAT and GPA. A person who has the same GPA and LSAT coming from these schools will basically have the same options for law school. However, you could very well decide to become a engineer (rather than spend 3 years of your life + thousands in tuition for law school for a career that might pay less than one you could have as an engineer). To keep your options open, like others have said, maybe consider Minnesota or ASU. Fordham isn’t really known for STEM, and that lack of accreditation could be an issue.
Law school on the horizon . . . 3 elements: 1) high GPA; 2) as little debt as possible; and 3) high LSAT scores (down the road).
Of course go to a decent school (sounds like all your options are solid except possibly Fordham with the ABET issue). Is there a reason you didn’t look at UA? It’s a beautiful campus with lots of good stuff happening.
@mom2collegekids , (Dad here), both ASU and UofMN have offered his significant scholarships for NMF (not Full Ride, but Full Tuition at ASU and enough to cover Tuition+ as UofMN.) The lack of ABET accreditation does concern me a little, but we have had that discussion. I can’t speak for my son, but he feels that Law School is his ultimate goal. Engineer would be more of a backup if he couldn’t afford it.
@Tribruin And Fordham wouldn’t provide much of a backup in engineering if he needed to go in that direction, it really doesn’t significantly mitigate that risk. Nor would it be as useful if he decided he loved engineering and wanted to ditch law school. I looked through the resumes of a few top IP law firms and many of their partners had industry experience - some significant - in their STEM field…might be more difficult to do that coming out of Fordham.
If eng’g is a “back up” then he needs to be at an ABET accredited eng’g school.
I understand the whole “back up” idea…my son’s back up career was Chemical Eng’g. He’s not pursuing a ChemE career, but at least the program was ABET accredited.
UMN is probably the best choice, because it has a really strong Engineering program as well as a minor that would match your interests, plus Mock Trial.
The downside compared to Barrett are the weather, the relative higher risk of a lower GPA at UMN compared to Barrett, and apparently you’re not in the Honors College at UMN which would make Barrett more attractive, especially priority registration which makes a HUGE difference to your quality of life and thus your grades (+ your ability to choose good professors or classes that really interest you.)
Agree about need for ABET accreditation with engineering being a back up, but also if one needs to pursue Professional Engineer credentials down the road.
I would also say visit the schools (if not done so), and would benefit at least a visit to UA.
While I appreciate all the UA suggestions, I’ve already applied to both UCF and UNM which are offering me full rides for national merit finalists. My parents have had the long talk about finances, and any of the three are doable. Theses are more the “both my parents lose their jobs” fallback.
I hope you enjoy your UMN and ASU/Barrett visits.
Make sure to ask about Honors College at UMN too - it’d provide you with some of the advantages you’d get in Barrett.