Choosing the Right School for EA/ED (Ivys/Duke/Stanford/MIT) - International Student

College Search & Selection
1

Hi,

As the title suggests, I am now facing the difficult and important decision of choosing which university I should apply EA/ED.

First, some background info:

I am a 22 year-old Israeli (though I also have an American citizenship) and am now facing the undergraduate application process (after completing my 3 years of mandatory military service last summer).

For as long as I can remember, I have always aspired to one day become a lawyer and practice corporate law in the U.S. As such, I intend on pursuing my JD at Harvard Law, since I believe that, despite the tremendous amount of effort that it will take to be accepted, the top-notch curriculum as well as the invaluable alumni network will be crucial in allowing me a quick and smooth transition in to the job market.

As for my undergraduate studies, I plan on pursuing a double-major in Economics and Philosophy. I chose these subjects first and foremost out of my academic interest in them, but I also took in to account the many benefits that these studies will have as far as my long-term plans go. In all honesty (and I know that many of you here on CC will disapprove of my approach), I see my undergraduate degree mainly as the “stepping stone” for getting in to Harvard Law. I’m not looking for any kind of specific “college experience”, and I honestly don’t care too much about the location of the university itself; I’m sure that I will enjoy my undergraduate studies regardless of any of that. Since I have no real preference when it comes to the university itself, I intend to make the decision of which school to apply EA/ED based solely on my chances of admission. I went through all the data tables I could find regarding the top schools and EA/ED admission rates compared to RD admission rates, but was unable to find any concrete information on this with respect to international students (and, of course, Israel-specific information).

Due to unfortunate personal circumstances, I was unable to complete the application process for the regular decision rounds of last year. That said, I have not let this year go to waste; instead, I worked on strengthening my applicant profile (improving my SAT scores and adding over 20 weekly hours of volunteer work) as well as partaking in activities that I enjoy but probably won’t have time for in college (taking courses in 2 new languages, reading plenty of books, continuing my martial arts training and even picking up bodybuilding as a hobby).

Test scores -
SAT (superscore): 2280 (730W 790M 760 CR)
Subject Tests: 800 Math II, 790 Chemistry

** TL;DR ** - Clueless 22 year-old post-military Israeli (with American citizenship and decent test scores) male looking for advice regarding which top-school to apply EA/ED, based solely on chances of being accepted.

Thanks in advance and sorry for the long post!

2

I think for the extremely competitive school, they’re all equally hard to get into. You may find yourself to be rejected by Cornell ED but accepted into Harvard RD as each school is looking for different things. You might be an attractive applicant for one school but no so much at the other.

Based purely on statistics, Cornell ED has the highest acceptance rate at roughly about 27%, the number is a little skewed as a lot of athletes, and legacy (who have an extremely high chance of getting in based on their hooks) apply during the early round, but it technically is the ‘easiest’ to get into out of the schools you picked.

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(You’re reminding me of one of the characters in Assaf Gavron’s “The Hilltop” :slight_smile: )

Have you run Net Price Calculators to see if the schools are affordable for your family? I’m assuming you entered the Army straight out of high school at 18, so by age you won’t be considered an independent student–your family’s income will still be a consideration.

You say that you aren’t looking for a specific type of college experience, but you may want to see if any of the schools you are considering have a significant population of students with military experience and/or Israelis. Ask on the College Search and Selection and/or the Parents forum for suggestions of top schools which have these communities.

What other schools are on the rest of your list? Everything so far is a reach.

4

Thank you for your replies @rdeng2614 and @SlitheyTove !

@rdeng2614 : I am aware that getting into these highly-selective schools is a very challenging and sometimes frustrating task, and it is for that very reason that even the slightest difference in my chances of admission is so valuable. Nonetheless, I intend to do everything in my power and will simply have to hope for the best.
I too have come across the statistics that you mentioned, but I found very little on how these general admission statistics work in respect to international students (and even less so regarding Israeli students in particular).
Do you think that the fact that my grandfather is a Columbia alumnus makes any difference? Would it mean that I have a better chance with Columbia than I might at Cornell?

@SlitheyTove I’d love to know which character you are referring to :slight_smile: . I have indeed run the Net Price Calculators and as far as I can tell it shouldn’t be too much of a problem (75K-100K income bracket), but I can always take one of those infamous loans if push comes to shove. As for safety schools - I will include either one or two of these in the RD rounds (still undecided regarding which ones to chose). That said, I probably won’t attend either of them even if I get rejected from my reaches, as they would most likely offer an education of comparable quality to that of the local Israeli universities; in that situation, I would rather save my money for my graduate degree.
It is true that I would most likely be happier in a university that has a significant population of students with military experience and/or Israelis, but I personally feel that this might be more relevant in a situation where I were lucky enough to be accepted to more than one of my reaches and had to choose which one to attend. At this point in time, I feel that my top priority should be getting into ANY of these top-schools during the EA/ED round, as it is not very likely for me to be accepted during the RD rounds.

Still looking for more opinions, any will be most welcome :slight_smile:

5

Good to know there are backup options, and that you are aware of saving your money for law school. I would also suggest that you not take out excessive loans over the federal limits. Save the option of private loans for law school.

Do check on the international forums and the above named forums to find out if any of the schools on your list will be especially tough (or even impossible) as an ED/EA option, given that you are an international student who is a US citizen who is looking for aid. You could also post on the Financial Aid forum–expect people to be very no-nonsense in their responses.

If you wouldn’t attend any US safety schools, why bother applying?

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If you’re concerned for financial aid, then as an international student, Harvard, Yale, Princeton, MIT, Dartmouth and Amherst are the 6 schools that guarantee full demonstrated need to international students.
Are you an international student? With American citizenship I thought you would be considered as a domestic applicant, even when applying from abroad.

7

@SlitheyTove I will definitely ask on the other forums as well!
The reason I am applying to a few safety schools is that I just want to keep my options open, in case I decide to try re-applying to the Ivies as a transfer student.

@rdeng2614 As far as I can tell, it seems that MIT is the only school in the list that considers international students who are American citizens (i.e. US citizens that have spent their entire lives in a foreign country) as domestic applicants. It seems that all of the Ivies, as well as Stanford, offer full demonstrated need to US citizens, regardless of international status.

Thank you again for your concerns and suggestions!

8

As far as I am aware, you will be considered a U.S. applicant, not an international student, even though you’ve lived overseas. You will be included in the U.S. admissions pool and eligible for U.S. financial aid, both of which are advantageous.

You should run the schools’ net price calculators to make sure you can afford the estimated family contribution. You shouldn’t expect to finance your undergraduate degree with loans unless your family is prepared to co-sign.

Harvard and other top law schools admit students from a wide range of educational and cultural backgrounds. There is no single path to admissions other than an excellent GPA and excellent LSAT score.

At age 22 and having completed Israeli military service, you are not a traditional first year applicant. This can be a plus or a minus; it’s difficult to predict. All selective colleges are looking for students who will contribute to the campus community intellectually, in talent and in life experience.

9

You’re a domestic applicant educated abroad.
I’d go for MIT: your test scores indicate you can handle the science, but your more-unusual-than-typical-for-MIT choice of major would be a plus in your favor.
In addition, since you’re fluent in Hebrew and English, presumably know some Arabic, and have started other languages, indicating interest in MIT’s excellent Language Programs could be a plus, too.

Any top LAC would be excellent for your chosen majors and would probably consider your application very seriously. It may be harder since there wouldn’t be too many 22 year olds but the small class discussions may be worth it.

There are about 3,700 universities in the US. Any Top 50 LAC or university will provide you with a superb education unlikely to be replicated in Israel. It’s really not Ivy/Ivy-like or bust. In particular, I’d investigate Honors Colleges at flaghips and LACs with strong philosophy/Economics combos (Hamilton, Colgate, Colorado College… come to mind). If you have the money, NYU Stern may be a good choice too since it combines business with liberal arts and they’re very big on mathematical ability. They’re very stingy with financial aid though so they may turn out to be unaffordable and since their NPC is crap, you can’t even tell ahead of time (which I think is the point of having a crappy NPC).

10

You should probably confirm this with your possible schools, but I believe you would be considered a domestic applicant. For example, here is what Cornell Engineering says about citizenship and applicants:

Who is an international student? Any student who is not a U.S. citizen or permanent resident is considered to be an international student. Students who hold dual citizenship between the U.S. and another country are considered to be domestic applicants, not international applicants. US citizens, or permanent residents, who are living and attending high school outside of the US, are considered domestic applicants.

11

"There are about 3,700 universities in the US. Any Top 50 LAC or university will provide you with a superb education unlikely to be replicated in Israel. It’s really not Ivy/Ivy-like or bust. "

This is obvious to those of us who live here, but it’s not obvious elsewhere. Can you tell us more about why you have assumed that only a handful of colleges in the US will provide “the” experience? Where do you get that from? Who’s told you that, and what makes you think they are a credible source about US colleges?

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Overall I agree with some of the later advice you’ve been getting - aiming for Ivies + Stanford and MIT is putting all your eggs in one basket. I think you’d be a strong applicant, given your test scores and background, but these places all have < 10% admissions rates and adding some schools that are at least in the 30-40% range would be a great idea. The first one that came to mind is Brandeis, and there’s also Boston College, Wake Forest, Case Western, Lehigh, Tulane, Boston U, many others. There are many schools that are sort of forgotten in the middle - schools that aren’t quite as competitive at HYPS+ but offer an excellent education and great access to post-college opportunities, including top law schools.

Columbia does take legacy status into account, but it doesn’t have a huge impact.

We are always pleased to receive applications from students whose family members have graduated from Columbia. When an applicant is extremely competitive and compares favorably with other similarly talented candidates, being the daughter or son of a Columbia University graduate (from any Columbia school or college) may be a slight advantage in the admission process. This advantage may especially apply for “legacy” candidates.

Normally Columbia College does not accept students who have taken a break from education of more than a year; however, they make an exception for those who completed mandatory military service. When there, I met several students there who were Israeli and had done their mandatory service and were still in CC (and one other student who was older because he took two years to do a Mormon mission).

I’m not sure what the chances are, but if you are really trying to leverage that you could instead apply to the School of General Studies - it’s tailored for non-traditional students; many of them are prior military; the acceptance rate is way higher than the CC acceptance rate (I think around 26%) but you would take all the same classes and could participate in all the same activities as a CC student. Since college is just a stepping stone for you, it kind of wouldn’t matter which division you attend in.

13

The OP explained his reasoning in another thread.

Perfectly sensible to me. Hebrew University and Tel Aviv U are well respected in the US, and Bar-Ilan and Ben-Gurion are pretty decent too. No reason to incur a lot of expense for undergrad given the cost of law school and the current career outlook for law.

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Juillet - I don’t think that Columbia gives a legacy advantage to grandchildren -the OP has said that his grandfather was a Columbia alumnus. Here’s what the Columbia website says:

Please note: applicants are considered to be “legacies” of Columbia only if they are the children of Columbia College or Columbia Engineering graduates.