Choosing the Right School for EA/ED (Ivys/Duke/Stanford/MIT) - International Student

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1

Hi all,

As the title suggests, I am now facing the difficult and important decision of choosing which university I should apply EA/ED.

I originally posted this question in the “College Admissions” forum, but was advised to post it here as well in order to get a more definitive answer. You can see the original thread here: http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-admissions/1811531-choosing-the-right-school-for-ea-ed-ivys-duke-stanford-mit-international-student.html

Some background info (taken from the aforementioned thread):
I am a 22 year-old Israeli (though I also have an American citizenship) and am now facing the undergraduate application process (after completing my 3 years of mandatory military service last summer).
For as long as I can remember, I have always aspired to one day become a lawyer and practice corporate law in the U.S. As such, I intend on pursuing my JD at Harvard Law, since I believe that, despite the tremendous amount of effort that it will take to be accepted, the top-notch curriculum as well as the invaluable alumni network will be crucial in allowing me a quick and smooth transition in to the job market.

As for my undergraduate studies, I plan on pursuing a double-major in Economics and Philosophy. I chose these subjects first and foremost out of my academic interest in them, but I also took in to account the many benefits that these studies will have as far as my long-term plans go. In all honesty (and I know that many of you here on CC will disapprove of my approach), I see my undergraduate degree mainly as the “stepping stone” for getting in to Harvard Law. I’m not looking for any kind of specific “college experience”, and I honestly don’t care too much about the location of the university itself; I’m sure that I will enjoy my undergraduate studies regardless of any of that. Since I have no real preference when it comes to the university itself, I intend to make the decision of which school to apply EA/ED based solely on my chances of admission. I went through all the data tables I could find regarding the top schools and EA/ED admission rates compared to RD admission rates, but was unable to find any concrete information on this with respect to international students (and, of course, Israel-specific information).

Due to unfortunate personal circumstances, I was unable to complete the application process for the regular decision rounds of last year. That said, I have not let this year go to waste; instead, I worked on strengthening my applicant profile (improving my SAT scores and adding over 20 weekly hours of volunteer work) as well as partaking in activities that I enjoy but probably won’t have time for in college (taking courses in 2 new languages, reading plenty of books, continuing my martial arts training and even picking up bodybuilding as a hobby).

Other potentially important information-

  1. Test scores -
    SAT (superscore): 2280 (730W 790M 760 CR)
    Subject Tests: 800 Math II, 790 Chemistry
  1. My grandfather got his MA from Columbia (I have no idea if this actually makes any difference).
  2. I am applying for financial aid as well (75k-100k income bracket), which shouldn't be a problem with most schools thanks to my American citizenship.

** TL;DR ** - Clueless 22 year-old post-military Israeli (with American citizenship and decent test scores) male looking for advice regarding which top-school to apply EA/ED, based solely on chances of being accepted.

Thanks in advance and sorry for the long post!

2

You are putting Harvard Law on a pedestal. You seem to think that it’s the pinnacle, the meaning of life.

You’re supposed to apply ED to the school you love the most. Nowhere have you talked about which schools on your list intrigue or excite you for some reason. Did you investigate these schools, or simply pull the top 10 or so from the rankings?

3

@Pizzagirl Firstly, I’d like to thank you for your reply.

I am aware that my view on academia is not a very supported one here on CC. That said, I do feel that I should at least explain my point-of-view, even though it is not likely to convince you or any of the other posters who so strongly oppose such views. I’ll start by saying that I am not putting Harvard Law on a pedestal because it has the name “Harvard” in it. I think that many will agree that though there are many other good law schools out there (and perhaps even better such as Yale), getting your JD at HLS has a lot of important benefits (and that’s before we even start to talk about the very high placement rate); whether it’s the large and diverse student body (who will one day become top lawyers themselves), the amazing and invaluable alumni network or even just the “prestige” a name like Harvard brings to it (which will surely be useful both in the US and in business trips abroad), these are all important benefits.

As far as applying to the school you love most for ED/EA, I have to say that if they weren’t all reaches then I obviously would. The problem is that these schools are all so highly-competitive that there is no guarantee whatsoever that I will even get in to a single one on the list. I have always enjoyed studying, whether it was in class back at high-school or even during my military service when I had to study for my position in an intelligence unit. It is because of this, and because I am not looking for any specific “college experience” like many of the 18 year old freshman are, that I believe that no matter where I eventually choose to attend - I will surely enjoy my undergraduate studies. To me, it’s just not that important what my undergraduate years are like since I’ll still have many more to go while getting my JD, which is really the degree that will determine how quickly and smoothly I can make my transition into the job market.

I did do my research on these schools, as well as on other schools that are not part of the Ivy League. My conclusion was that though there are many amazing universities in the U.S., those that I have not mentioned (apart for maybe the top liberal colleges) simply will not give me enough of an advantage compared to an education here in Israel. Thus, it would not be worth it for me, as I can study here for about 2,500 USD per year.

Anyway, thank you again for your reply and your concern, and I hope that if you have relevant information on this topic that you will share it with me :slight_smile:

4

If your interest is law, then I’d rule out MIT. You’d be taking many difficult math and science courses.

It would help if you spoke of what kind of environment you want–city, suburb, rural. Also, how large a college you want. I think there are colleges that are just as good as some of the Ivy (sports ))league. If you include Duke, why not UWash? Tufts? UVa? UChicago? NW? Swat Amherst, Williams, And so on

5

I think it’s admirable that you are a bloom where planted type. I think your chances are going to be best at a school with ED where you are committed to attending, however I can’t help thinking that if you applied to Cornell or Duke ED, you’d probably always wonder if you could have gotten into Harvard or Yale or Princeton. So I think you should apply EA or SCEA to whatever school you think you like best and forget the ED schools.

My guess is that you might have a slightly better chance at Duke than Cornell, just because of your background. But that is not based on anything. I don’t think any of us have special insight about whether there are any particular schools looking for internationals - especially ones like you with unusual backgrounds.

6

@bookworm Thank you for your reply! To be honest, I actually love everything that has to do with math and science , so I have no problem whatsoever with a curriculum that includes courses in these subjects :slight_smile: I chose MIT mainly because the economics courses there seem incredible (like all math-related courses there), and I’ve heard some pretty good things about their philosophy courses as well. Pursuing a philosophy and economics double-major at MIT won’t be easy, but I definitely wouldn’t want to rule them out - I’m always up for a challenge B-)
As far as the other schools you mentioned, I will definitely include some of them, but that will only be at the RD rounds. Duke is definitely borderline, but it is still ranked higher than the rest of the non-ivies when considering HLS feeder schools.

I have no preference as far as the environment of the university- whether it’s a big city, a small suburb or even a rural area, I’m sure that I will enjoy the experience just as much. As far as college size goes - I would probably prefer a smaller school for my undergraduate studies, but I honestly think that it’s not something I should consider when deciding on a school to apply EA/ED to. Instead, that is something that I might consider if I happen to be lucky enough to get in to more than one Ivy during the RD rounds.

@mathmom Thank you for your kind words and concerns. It is always nice to see someone who can understand things from my perspective without attacking me for it :slight_smile:
You are probably right when you say that I will always wonder if I could have gotten into the HYPSM schools if I apply and get accepted ED to a different university. That said, I have no problems with such a situation, as all of the schools that are ED (Brown, Columbia, Cornell, Dartmouth, UPenn and even Duke) are amazing universities that any student should feel proud to attend.

I was (and still am) indeed hoping for some special insight on this matter and my particular situation, but because it is so specific and unusual (a quick search found very few threads regarding Israeli students here on CC) I know that it is not something that can be found so easily. Either way, I think that CC is an amazing resource for both international and domestic students, and I am most thankful to anyone that tries to help,

7

I find it appalling that you’re putting Harvard Law on such a pedestal. Everyone knows Yale Law is better.

8

Some of my family have lived in Israel for a lifetime. My friends son finished his army service and went to UWash. It mattered how much of a Jewish vibe there was. There is a LNG thread here on CC for that subject.

I think, if you do attend UG in USA, your view of best law schools will change, as some are far better in certain fields.

9

Why do you have to apply ED to any of these?

10

^The OP is trying to maximize the chances of acceptance. It’s why I don’t like ED - students are basically bullied into thinking strategically instead of just applying to the places they like best.

11

No, I disagree. He’s not being “bullied” into applying ED anywhere.

12

Who put into your head the notion that these rankings are meaningful other than indicating bands of quality? Do you think that in the U.S., people bow down to those who went to HYPSM and bow less deeply if it’s “only” Duke or Cornell? (Hint: no one “bows” to anyone based on the college they went to). You’re imbuing these rankings with too much precision and meaning.

13

There is no good data to determine which of those 11 schools (Ivies, Stanford, MIT, Duke) would give the greatest ED relative advantage for someone just like you (22 year old Israeli etc.) Nor is there any good way to identify the most selective of these 11 that is at least N% likely to admit you in the ED round. If you simply want to maximize your chances of getting in somewhere, as long as it’s one of these 11 (for some reason), then just pick the one that is least selective for ED. That probably would be Cornell.

Of course, attending Cornell (or any of the others) won’t guarantee you a spot at HLS. Nor will HLS guarantee achievement of any other low-odds objective you’ll no doubt set for yourself once you’re there. You’d be correct if you think HLS on a resume will at least open a few doors in the hiring process, or open them wider than most other law schools. That’s at least 7 years in the future, so you ought to be thinking too about your quality of life for the rest of your 20s (which will be gone by then).

14

A list of undergrad colleges that the 2014-15 entering Harvard Law Class attended is at http://hls.harvard.edu/dept/jdadmissions/apply-to-harvard-law-school/undergraduate-colleges/ . Note that the 572 students attended 172 undergrad colleges, so everyone is not attending the same few elite colleges. I think most of the forum would not consider the majority of colleges on the list to be “elite.” I haven’t seen anything about HLS preferring a particular undergrad college or type of undergrad college, although Harvard College students probably do have a notable advantage in HLS admissions, including special programs for HC like the junior deferral program where HC students can be accepted to HLS under the condition that they must work for at least 2 years first. HLS admissions has talked about the importance of work experience, and roughly 3/4 the HLS class spend some time getting work experience after undergrad. Harvard College also gives more of an advantage to SCEA applicants than most other SCEA schools and has excellent FA for international applicants.

That said, I agree with the earlier posters that there are many outstanding law schools besides Harvard that will offer similar benefits. I’d suggest broadening your outlook.

15

There are several premises made by the OP that seems weird and out of touch with reality.

  1. That HLS is better for reaching your goals than similar law schools.
  2. That the Ivies/Stanford/MIT/Duke are better for getting in to HLS than other Ivy-equivalents (including LACs) or even non-Ivy-equivalents.

@tk21769, BTW, Cornell ED admissions seems pretty idiosyncratic. As in, kids with worse stats get admitted over kids with better stats for reasons that are difficult to discern all the time.

16

OP:

Yale Law is the holy grail of US law schools. Why “limit” yourself to HLS? :slight_smile: