Class of 2020 costs & aid - stuck in the middle, at expense of student

Parents Forum
61

To me, it meant that if you put in the effort, you can reach for the starts, and if you choose to be average, don’t blame your parents not having enough money to pay for a better school. You may not get into an elite school, but if you work hard, you can still get into a good college and a have a good life. If you don’t make an effort and blame everyone but yourself, that’s another story.

oh good grief…this is up there with one of the more delusional things i’ ve ever read here. perhaps you should stick around and see what happens to the donut hole kids…they can work hard all they want, but for the most part, we as parents don’t have 75.000/yr of disposable income laying around. that $16,000/yr scholarship may mean bukpus when you cant afford the remaining EFC…irregardless of just how hard a kid worked. college expenses are disproportionate to actual reality in very many cases–even if your kid cured cancer and built a yert in the jungle…working hard is only a small part of the answer. if you don’t believe me, just see any of the “I was accepted by cant afford threads”.

oh yea, not all of us live in a consortium either. four whole states of us are in the wind–something that also apparently is lost in transation.

but stay gold ponyboy…

62

@PurpleTitan,the post came after the one that said

“the parents themselves worked their way through college without parental help or financial aid and expect their kids to be able to”

so yes, I thought the response was about the kids who can, if they try hard, put themselves through college, without relying on their parents.

63

Remember that immigrants are a special case in the interaction between individual ability and motivation, inherited SES effects, and other factors that influence one’s potential for success.

By moving to a new country, immigrants are obviously self-selected for high motivation, regardless of SES level. Also, the immigration system selects many immigrants for high educational attainment (e.g. 50% of Chinese and 70% of Indian immigrants have bachelor’s degrees, far higher than the percentage that do in those countries or non-immigrants in the US), so even if they take lower pay jobs than their educational attainment levels would otherwise indicate, they are more likely to influence their kids favorably with respect to education than non-immigrants.

Also, many people’s “bubbles” are composed mainly of those similar to themselves, so that others who came from the same background but achieved much more or less may be less likely to be in one’s “bubble”.

64

@typiCAmom, in which case that response is still ludicrous. Where is a kid with a HS education going to be able to make $65K a year (no matter how hard they work) while still having time to attend college?

65

College costs are completely out of hand, to be sure. That said, what frustrates me is all the self-indulgence I see in the suburban middle class that later results in whining and complaining come time to pay the piper. People want their McMansions and SUV’s, their two week fancy vacations out of state or country, their several nights off each week from cooking, their dry cleaning of cotton shirts over laundering and pressing at home, their daily coffee at Starbucks instead of home brewed Maxwell House, and their children dressed in Aussie sheepskin boots and talking on iphones. They also want their little darling, who lives less than a 20 minute drive from the state flagship, to board on campus so he has the “full college experience” (which to the kid means party, party, party) and yet they complain of crushing debt from college. Why? Because the average American family, due to all that discretionary spending they engage in, will have only saved a grand total of $3000 before their first child gets to college age! I’m sorry, but for many families that’s not a result hard luck, but plain irresponsibility and a glaring inability to deny themselves gratification. In addition, these parents hold their children to the same low standard to which they hold themselves: the easy, comfortable way. They say, “Mary’s very smart, but I don’t want her to have to kill herself in high school taking all those honors and AP courses.”

Being frugal, we were still never going to be able to afford $65,000 a year. But on one salary that never reached 6 digits and was as low as $25,000, 3 kids, and multiple surgeries for one of them resulting in some hefty medical expenses, we could still afford to pay $15-20,000 per year, which is enough for a private LAC with FA, or the state school with minimal loans. Americans have to stop spending more than they have.

66

Caveat: this is what I see in my NJ community. Your experience may be different.

67

Back to topic…

@midcdad

<<<
Between savings, HE, and cash-flow (requiring significant tightening of household budget), S is looking at taking on significant debt with exception of State U.
<<<

You mention that this is your first child. Therefore the idea of taking out a HE loan is probably not a great idea. You have other kids’ college to also fund or manage.

What is your son’ major? For 99.9% of careers, a good state school is absolutely fine.

What is the state school?

<<<
Obviously many families are in a similar funding situation, but am I alone in feeling that telling a kid that has worked really hard and excelled academically/athletically/service that, “sorry, to attend where you’ve worked so hard to get accepted, you’re looking at ~$100K debt”, is a pretty tough reality to digest?


[QUOTE=""]

[/QUOTE]

It would be nutty-crazy to allow your son to borrow that much. I assume you love him? If so, love him enough not to help him commit financial suicide. And, it could end up being financial suicide for you since you would have to co-sign those loans…and the loans for younger kids because you set the precedence of letting a child go where he wants regardless of cost.

Put your big-boy pants on now, or you could lose your pants later.


[QUOTE=""]
Meanwhile there are those fortunate enough to pay full cost with no assistance and those fortunate enough to be in a financial situation to be offered a much more affordable (much less or no debt) package. In between, it seems, families of qualified kids are being told they should be able to afford ~$250K for undergrad, which is outrageous in my opinion.

[/QUOTE]

Interested to hear others’ perspective.
<<<<

As mentioned, those who get full need pay are not “fortunate” (unless they’re screwing the system somehow or some other loophole).

The students in the worst situation are those who have modest or “just good” stats and parents who can’t pay.

What are your son’s stats? What is his career goal?

Where all did he apply and get in?

68

Our kids have limited college options bc of our life choice options. It has nothing to do with hard work. My dh and I both work hard. We freely admit that it is entirely about how we choose to live. We made the decision to have a large family. We made the decision I would stay home and homeschool our children. Both mean that, while we live a comfortable and stable daily life, we live off dh’s income and that no, we cannot afford EFC x8 x4 yrs. It is a choice, and yes, it impacts our children’s options.

FWIW, I wouldn’t change a thing. Neither would our kids. They have educational freedom and opportunities that most kids don’t get to experience. They get to progress at their pace, not a classroom. They get to study subjects they want. They are directly involved in what they study and how they study it. A couple of our kids are 2E ( gifted with LDs). Homeschooling has allowed them to thrive and advance in their areas of strength while working directly with their areas of weakness at lower levels.

Life is full of trade-offs. We could have made different life decisions, but that is not the life we wanted. Limited college options for our kids is a consequence of those choices.

69

“Working hard” is one of the great life lessons,imo. Priceless, really. It forms a foundation and is what allows kids to take on even greater challenges in their futures. Or even just make choices that don’t go to those who always hang back.

That’s it.

It doesn’t mean College X has to accept you or give you a financial break. It doesn’t mean you take those strengths and then throw yourself into 100k debt, which isn’t wise. If we’re really smart, we make measured decisions, set aside some of the emotional tugs.

70

Ah, someone else finally mentioned the glaringly obvious point to the OP: your kid can’t take out $100k of loans himself. The parents would have to cosign. If you’re not willing to be on the hook for that kind of debt, game over.

I worked my way through school at a flagship where tuition was $251 a quarter and COA was @2800/year (early 80s). Had to turn down a top school because there was no way to make the $$ work on my own. Flagship tuition here is now $8k, COA for in-state, on-campus students $25k. A $10/hr job @ 40 hrs a week plus a Stafford would barely over COA.

Yes, hard work is involved, and luck, too. You’re lucky if you are in good enough health to be able to work. You’re lucky if your employer stays afloat and you aren’t laid off due to no fault of your own. You’re lucky if your son/daughter is physically/mentally healthy enough and academically qualified to attend college in the first place.

I kept my toes in the workforce (FT, PT, and some stints where I was a SAHM or not working due to medical issues) to maintain economic viability. Every dollar I made while the kids were in college went to EFC, and it was one less dollar we would have had to otherwise borrow. Keeping my toes wet also enabled me to earn a better salary than if I’d been out of the workforce the entire time. OTOH, my flexibility was good for my kids and enabled my DH to work and travel his crazy hours in support of his career.

Many private schools don’t use FAFSA EFC – they take more family assets into account. We looked into FA calcs when our kids were young and came to the conclusion that we’d fall into the college version of the donut hole – close to full pay, and not likely to get much FA beyond loans. We planned accordingly and lived frugally. Of course, we didn’t expect two life-changing medical events, and so we had to go to Plan B.

Both my kids went to highly competitive, nationally known selective public programs. About 50% at each program went to our flagship, many with merit money, and some turned down HPYSM schools to do so. We know a number of them who did extremely well there and are now in graduate programs at Harvard, MIT, Caltech, Duke, Cambridge, etc. My nieces went to state schools because that was the affordable option – they have done amazingly well and are graduating with honors this spring. I am sorry we didn’t push the flagship option harder (esp. for one of my kids).

71

It’s not a hypothetical for me… I did work full time in undergrad while going to school full time. I made decently more than minimum wage, too. Even if every single take home penny went to my school, I still couldn’t cover COA. And then of course in realityville, I did have other bills and whatnot so every penny couldn’t go towards school.

I made it happen but only because I got fairly significant aid. Otherwise it just isn’t a realistic option for many people and I’d never, ever advocate for going to school and working full time.

72

Interesting discussion, but am glad we are getting back on topic.

To play devil’s advocate for a second, though, why are we all so certain that where they go is not (at all) who they’ll be? (And yes, I’ve read Bruni’s book and agree wholeheartedly with much of it) But are we not all influenced by our surroundings? Do my kids in their upper-middle class school really do so much better than their counterparts in our city’s urban core because they are intrinsically smarter or to a degree because they have been greatly influenced by their surroundings? Would a smart, but impressionable young person perhaps exceed his potential in a new challenging environment in the city of his dreams rather than down the road surrounded by the same kids? Would he rise to the level of those at the more selective private than the 3.0 GPA kids at state? With (my son’s) serious interest in International Relations is it really just as good to be in Kansas instead of 3 blocks from the White House?

@colfac92 makes a very good point, that these are choices that each family must make. I’m hoping OP was exaggerating about the $100k in loans? We are facing a similar situation in which the loan total at the end of the 4 years might be around $40k, if S chooses more “prestigious” school vs state flagship. To say we are foolish to do so is a little insulting. Should I also say the same to many (most?) of our neighbors who took out loans to drive 40-, 50-, 60-thousand dollar cars, while I tool around my 1% 'hood in my 2003 van? Each family has to make their own choices.

@twoinanddone also makes a good point about attitude, but that can apply to the choices as well. Regardless of the attitude my S or OP’s kid should have about state vs elite, nothing we can say at this point is going to completely change their view of the 2 options. So is he still better off going to a school that he deep-down believes isn’t as good as the other? and how will this affect his level of motivation, self-confidence, etc? Say what you want about skin in the game, etc, but it’s the same dilemma we ALL face on a daily basis when we choose to wear Nike instead of Walmart, etc. (And I’m someone who frequently wears Walmart and thrift-store clothing).

The points being made here and on many threads by many of the members are valid and wise and helpful to a degree, but it’s not black and white. It’s not totally wrong to want to sacrifice and stretch and take on some risk for your child’s education, is it? And a state school is not necessarily just as good.

73

But why does he “deep down” believe one school isn’t as good as another? What makes you think he knows, at all, at 17? Most kids don’t know. They hear about rep or they think one college ensures a Wall Street future, med school, a top engineering starter salary or they think that because they were ahead of others in their hs, they shouldn’t have to go to college with those others. It’s superficial. So many kids, even top performers, can’t even answer a Why Us.

My state school isn’t good, I get that. But if you really want to “support” him, why weren’t plans made ahead of time to keep loans to a manageable amount? Or to find those super colleges with merit for his achievements? Or to really show him how his interests can be met and challenged at a variety of colleges?

74

@lookingforward, for the same reason you just said “My state school isn’t good.” Says who? By what criteria? Every item you purchase is compared and many of the judgements we all make from thrift store vs Old Navy vs Banana Republic vs Vineyard Vines is a choice and we’re all allowed to make the ones we want. Would you lecture your neighbors for wearing Nike vs Walmart? I just think the tone on here is a little harsh when it comes to parents & kids wanting so-called better schools. No school insures a future, but I would argue it can give one an edge in some cases.

And my teenager must be different from all of yours because I can’t change his mind just because I say so. Yes, I can make him do whatever I want, but that is very different from changing his mind.

He did receive merit for his achievements at the elite school. Just not enough to pay for the whole thing. Had they met our EFC we could have done it without loans, but they did not. (Yet. We are appealing fin aid.)

Since you’re asking me and not the OP about why we didn’t plan correctly, I guess I meant to imply our potential loans of $40,000 ARE perhaps “a manageable amount” in the same way that MANY people who buy cars today incur loans of $40,000+ to do so. (We haven’t; we’ve chose to pay cash for old crappy cars in turn for extending ourselves for something we feel is worthwhile, such as our child’s education.)

I didn’t want to to totally hijack OP’s thread, so I didn’t mention that our kid does not want to go to college with 100 kids from his HS because he wants a fresh start. He has always marched to the beat of a different drum, but has (his choice) kept that drum very quiet during HS so as to remain under the radar and frankly get it over with. We support him 100%. Some of the awareness of this on our part has just surfaced during his senior year, hence the reason we encouraged him to apply to state anyway last fall, before we got that totally.

Finally, our son actually was strongly encouraged to look elsewhere, but at this point, the options on the table for us are very similar to OP’s. I guess OP is getting the others’ perspectives he asked for, so I thought I’d chime in with a more sympathetic one. :-*

75

I want to be clear that I’m not of the no-loans-at-any-cost methodology. We wound up borrowing some the last two years of S2’s college, after I had to leave the workforce due to a very serious medical episode. It wasn’t the end of the world, but it was nowhere near $100k, either. We had refinanced our mortgage to a 15 year term way back when to build more equity to tap into for college if we needed it. So, when I was no longer able to throw my earnings at the EFC, we had the HELOC available.

My kids did take out Staffords every year they were in college. Shared investment in their futures.

76

Unless a student is going to a college with 1000 total enrollment, having 100 others from your high school is meaningless. Would a student turn down Princeton because 5 from the same school were also accepted? Not go to Duke because 4 others were? I really doubt it, and percentage wise, it’s about the same. At a big state U with 30,000 undergrads, 99 others is nothing. My daughter goes to a much smaller flagship with 2 other kids from her Kindergarten class (she went to a high school 2000 miles away so no classmates, but to Kindergarten only 150 miles away). One is in the same sorority, the other lived in the same dorm. Other than a “how do you know W?” it has been a non-event. The sorority sister provided an old photo for a display and someone said “Hey, why is M in your photo?” and they explained that they’ve know each other for 15 years. Oh, how interesting.

And that was it. No one is stepping on anyone’s toes, no one is bringing up the time she cried in music class, no problems with her having a fresh start. My niece went to a smaller school 1000 miles from her high school but knew about 50 kids from her school and others in the metro area. She enjoyed seeing a friendly, familiar face once in a while, especially in those first few months.

Going to the state school may not have been your dream, but if that’s what you can afford, that’s where you go.

77

efinand, no, you got a lot out of my post that I didn’t say.

CountingDown, we also took loans. (Both ours went to an LAC.) I have no core issue with judicious loans a family or a student can pay back. My last post was a reaction to what reads as some entitlement on a number of threads right now.

78

@twoinanddone, as with most things on CC, we could argue that point til the cows come home. My husband went to same state school after growing up here. Walked into his 1st class freshman year and sat next to a girl he’d been in school with since kindergarten, as well as several others from HS in other classes. For him (& your daughter) a non-issue. For my son? If that person was one of the bullies? It’s an issue.

My general point is that we can’t assume we know what’s best for others.

79

@lookingforward, ok, gotcha. I agree there is a good measure of entitlement on these boards, but also a good measure of lecturing, so I was probably reacting to that! :slight_smile:

80

And he could go to a dream school, a smaller school, and the very same thing could happen. My daughter is at a school 2000 miles awayand with 2 kids from Kindergarten! It is an OOS school for all of them. Daughter could have kept going north but at some point she’d be in Canada. My daughter was cool to this girl at the time they applied (kept telling me ‘I’m NOT sharing a room with her!’). I was very good friends with the girl’s mother, but sadly the mother was killed just weeks before the girls took off for school. Total 180, my daughter stepped up and was there for this girl (girl sometimes just wants to be with someone who knew her mom), and they are friends but not BFFs. Just friends.

My other daughter is at a school about 150 miles away and who should be there but a rival from the neighboring high school. On her team. With her 24/7. A girl who had actually battered and bruised her with harder than required hits and very rough play. We knew this when D was accepted and that almost made it harder because she could have chosen not to attend and kept looking for another school, but it was a really good offer and she wanted to go to this school and play on this team. She had to decide if she should please herself or be chased away. She obviously chose to go and not only has it not been a problem, they are now friend (and D will admit she made more of the rivalry than she should have) It’s a smaller school and an even smaller team (20 players), so not possible to avoid each other. And even though they are now on the same team, there are still bruises and hits, most recently a black eye.

OP’s original post was whether smart hard working students should have to settle for the public option. If that’s what you can afford, yes, just like you settled for the free public high school. My suggestion was to not think of it as settling. Enjoy it. Appreciate the many classes, the many options. If you can get accepted at a school that will give good merit, great. That school may not be where you want it to be. It may be too big or too small. That school may not be perfect.