I’m a third year undergraduate psych major right now and I’m just a little confused about a couple things and was hoping to find some guidance and answers on here.
First of all, my goal is to obtain a PsyD or PhD (btw can someone explain the major differences between these two and pros and cons?); I’ve read somewhere that some programs don’t require you to have a masters or some have the masters included in their program?
Second, do grad schools require the regular GRE or subject GRE?
I’m wondering about these programs as well, I’m in the same boat as you are GirlPower1. However my understanding is that the PhD is research based and more geared towards a career in academia whereas a PsyD is less based on research and more focused on clinical training for work in the community. The problem is that all the public universities that are more affordable in my state only offer PhD programs, and the only PsyD programs are at pricey private and less credible institutions. As for the GRE, my understanding is that some schools want it some don’t. If you take it though, all schools will have access to it and you have to report that you did it and what your score was, even to schools that don’t require it.
“pricey private and less credible” should tell you something about the psyd as a degree. It was pretty much created as a lower-skill, expensive way for someone to get a degree. (Money maker for lower ranked institutions.) While some people think that the research aspect of PhD program is not relevant to practice, this could not be more incorrect. The research aspect will inform you throughout your practice career about the changes in the field, which will help your patients. Psychiatry and psyd degrees don’t focus on research and suffer because the practitioners can’t evaluate properly the new understanding of the brain and how it works, for example. They can’t properly evaluate what makes for a good study or a bad study, and there’s plenty of lazy “research” out there based on, for example, few questionnaires but nothing reliable. A good program will help you understand why questionnaire-based studies are not reliable, for example. You will move from evaluating research with the level of analysis found in drugstore magazines, to really actually being able to evaluate research.
Ph.D. is more rigorous and will make you a better practitioner.
If you’re interested in a Ph.D. program, look at the individual programs very closely. You should look at the professors who teach the programs. By “look” I mean click on a professor’s webpage, download his/her papers and read them. Figure out their research interests. In so doing you will figure out 1) is that professor right for me? 2) what questions are being asked in the field currently? 3) do I personally want to look at this topic? 4) how active is this program/ this professor? (Will I finish on time?) Also ask yourself if the program is self-funded or if funding is available.
You will be able to target the right professor (because it’s the professor not the program that will mentor you). You will be able to focus your application to be successful. You will prepare ahead of time for your application by doing appropriate clinical or other work. You won’t be the person who writes the essay that reads: “I want to become a psychologist because I had a difficult childhood and want to help others.” You will be the person who writes: “Questions about X topic on brain functioning from the perspective of YZ and A interest me because they can dictate how an autistic child learns math in preschool.” Or whatever.
Questions about standardized tests etc can be also figured out by looking closely at the websites of the schools you’re interested in.
@Dustyfeathers Thanks so much for your input, it was really insightful. Do you have any insight on the GRE? I’ve heard mixed things about it and about whether to take a prep course or not for it.
I half-agree with the above, but not all of it.
The PsyD (or “Vail” model) was proposed at a psychological conference in 1973. Before that, the prevailing model was the scientist-practitioner (or “Boulder”) model, the PhD, which focused on turning out people who were scientists/researchers first and clinicians/practitioners second. The Vail model was intended to prepare students who aren’t interested in careers conducting research for clinical practice, so the focus is on learning how to practice psychology as a therapist/clinician.
However, PsyD students are still taught how to consume research as appropriate for their careers, so it’s untrue that people with PsyDs cannot properly evaluate new research. They still take research methods coursework and have to do a capstone research project, although it’s typically less rigorous than the dissertation; their abilities in this area kind of depend on the rigor and quality of their program in and of itself, not the three letters. There are many master’s level mental health counselors who are also not trained in the S-P model but still know how to consume research and improve their practice over time. (Many MDs are also perfectly capable of evaluating medical studies, although they usually gain this training through experiential learning or CME.)
However, I DO agree that PsyD programs tend to be at pricy private schools and also tend to be, on average, lower-quality programs than the PhD. That’s because by 1973, most of the well-established, top-shelf psychology departments already had a PhD and were not interested in switching to the PsyD model. Also, the issue with most PsyD programs is that they don’t come with funding. Most good, research-focused PhD programs will come with a full funding package (full tuition and fees plus a stipend in the $20-30K range). Mid-to-lower ranked clinical psychology PhD programs sometimes come with partial funding or no funding. But virtually all PsyD programs - good or bad - come with no funding; they’re intended to be treated like MD programs, where you borrow the full cost of attendance. The problem with that is that you might go $150-200K in debt for a career that pays like $75K on average. It’s not a great ROI, unless you have gobs of money available to you to pay it out of pocket.
Also, keep in mind that PsyDs will have an uphill battle getting a position at a university as a professor (even adjunct or with a less than full-time appointment) or researcher.
If you are interested in doing research and teaching at a university, definitely go for the PhD.
If you are interested in practicing as a therapist and have zero interest in research, I’d go for an MSW or an MA/MS/M.Ed in mental health counseling.
If you’re somewhere in the middle - with primary interest in practicing but some interest in maybe teaching or doing research someday, I’d still go for an MSW, with the knowledge that you can get a PhD in social work (or psychology) later on if you decide you want to teach. But that’s where things get a little more grey.
Also, counseling psychology is less competitive than clinical but will still allow you to practice as a clinician.
Also, this is only tangentially related, but there is a long and rich history of doing psychological research with questionnaires (and questionnaires are utilized in lots of different kind of research, including some RCTs). Questionnaires are not in and of themselves unreliable - you can, in fact, make a reliable questionnaire, and lots of psychologists use them. I’m a PhD-trained psychologist from a top 15-20 program and I use questionnaires all the time.
@juillet I appreciate adding the extra background that’s useful for the OP. We are mainly in agreement. There might be a difference in emphasis. I do agree also that there is a long rich history of questionnaires and, in order to not derail this discussion, I will only say (and not comment further) that they tend to be overused and not as reliable as most people/ researchers think. They make by themselves IM strong O very lazy “research” and need to be used alongside multiple other measures, speaking as someone closely involved with a top program too.
As for the GRE ask yourself if you want to be competitive for a top school, one that can train you well and can provide a stipend? If so, how will you get a top score? That should tell you whether you need a prep course for the GRE.
Thanks for both of your input! @juillet I’d need a PhD in order to eventually have my own practice wouldn’t I?
Also, this may seem like an obvious question, should I be looking in to Counseling programs versus clinical programs if my end goal is to be a practitioner?
You can open your own practice with a PhD, a PsyD, or an MSW. In many (most?) states you would need to meet some additional requirements after obtaining the MSW. In New York, for example, you have to meet the requirements to become an LCSW – Licensed Clinical Social Worker. These are the requirements in New York state:
http://www.op.nysed.gov/prof/sw/lcsw.htm
Take a look at the psychotherapist listings in Psychology Today. You’ll see the various backgrounds.
https://therapists.psychologytoday.com/rms/
Either one. A clinical psychologist is a a few rungs higher than a counseling psychologist. This article lays it all out. There might be some quibbles with some of the specifics, but it’s a good overview.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/marjorie-hansen-shaevitz/post_9154_b_6865002.html
@brantly
It seems like I’d need a PhD in order to become licensed here in California, http://www.psychology.ca.gov/applicants/license.shtml
Thanks for all your help!
@GirlPower1 In order to be a licensed clinical psychologist you need a doctorate (PhD or PsyD). But you can be another type of licensed psychotherapist, such as a licensed clinical social worker or a licensed marriage and family therapist. You can have a private practice with any one of these.
I’m not sure where this info is coming from…clinical psychologists and counseling psychologists are both PhD (or PsyD-) trained psychologists from APA-accredited programs, and they have very similar training. They’re definitely not intended to be ‘a few rungs apart’ from each other at all.
A mental health counselor is different from a counseling psychologist.
So you can look at either counseling psychology or clinical psychology PhD programs, as well as master’s programs in mental health counseling or MSW programs.